Tigger73's 125TSI Tiguan Build Thread

[tigger73]

I'm always upright when dealing with customers and I recall that I told you at the beginning to go with the APR, because I didn't have the bench tuning capabilities and Autologic the second brand that I use couldn't tune at the time (it can now) over the OBD2 port (14 months ago).

Now.... in your write up, I hope you will include every tuner brand who opened your ECU right from the beginning (don't leave the first one out of it), and just so every one knows, the Viezu file that misbehaved in your ECU was bench tuned and all your dealing was with the company in Melbourne, not with me in Adelaide. There were no tuned VAG cars in SA by Viezu SA, that had an issues. I would deal with it differently, you know that.

The condition of your ECU after it was opened by someone else (leave it to you to name the company), would forbid me from going ahead and tune your Tiguan with Viezu file. I told you after the first attempt to tune that your ECU needed to be fully reprogrammed by the VW dealer at that time (not any more, well at least in Adelaide ), this could mean that you would get the never version of the original ECU file and the outcome would be completely different, BUT that didn't happen and to my knowledge there was no communication or advice asked in the Viezu camp by the new dealer in Melbourne how to proceed.

After the first failed attempt to correct your tune in Melboune, you should get the full refund (maybe even compensation) and maybe you should ask the Melbourne tuner for it, rather than continue to drive unhappy for a year(?) in the car that you didn't enjoy.

Yes Transporter, I remember having a number of conversations with you about the best path forwards for tuning my car over the past couple of years. You have always been helpful with your advice and it is unfortunate that you were not able to tune my ECU as this was always my first preference (but understand that cost of purchasing tools and number of ECU's you would tune make it not profitable).

We have also tried a number of times to read my ECU over the OBD port each time a new update for the various tools comes through. And only last week your Autologic could read my ECU However limitation with Autologic is that it is stage 1 tune only and wouldn't allow any development to stage 2 or further. So for me it's a bit limiting.

The major challenges I faced at the time were (and still are):

• Tiguan MED17 ECU was bench tune only
• No tuners in Adelaide have bench tuning tools for the MED17 ECU
• No tuners had stage 2 hardware (DP) for Tiguan

So when Gavin from Custom Code was in Adelaide 18 months ago, I did have him attempt to bench tune my ECU. Unfortunately due to timing of his visit, and the fact that Custom Code had not tuned this particular ECU variant before, this meant that this was not an overnight job. Gavin ended up returning to Brisbane after having taken a read and applying a patch file to allow access to program the ECU over the OBD port.

Gavin was going to send down the programming lead for me to flash over the port, however I was not 100% comfortable doing this. In the unlikely event that anything went wrong and the ECU got bricked, then who would be responsible if I was the one flashing in the file? Also after further discussion with Gavin at Custom Code each hardware upgrade is an additional cost for software so although it is cheaper up front there's ongoing costs. Plus I still needed to get myself a DP and this would be a custom job. Given the ongoing costs for new files from Custom Code (not Gavin), I'd probably be better off to get all hardware first and then have Gavin tune it. Also Gavin wasn't planning to come back to Adelaide anytime soon so it all got too hard and I started looking at other options.

Which is when I started talking to Simon at Viezu about tuning my car and using it as a test-fit vehicle for Viezu Australia hardware range (VAR Design) for the Tiguan... story to be continued

[Transporter]

It's a real pity that the Viezu didn't get your tune fixed, but it's good that you're finally happy with your Tiguan. That's always been the first thing in my heart even if it means I lose the customer to other brand.

Good luck with your further modifications.

[tigger73]

It's a real pity that the Viezu didn't get your tune fixed, but it's good that you're finally happy with your Tiguan. That's always been the first thing in my heart even if it means I lose the customer to other brand.

Good luck with your further modifications.

Actually that's not quite correct as Viezu did eventually fix my tune file. However my issue was the performance, although certainly an improvement over stock, still didn't match competitive tunes. I wasn't prepared to wait any longer for Viezu to (possibly) develop a stronger file for the 125TSI hence the reason for changing tuners.

So it was certainly disappointing after all the time and effort a lot of people had put in that we didn't get the result.

[Sharkie]

As Transporter, said at least you will now be happier with your Tig

To be honest, and not slagging other tuners (much anyway), if you see the actual time and effort spent by APR Australia developing and "localising" each piece of software and hardware they sell (and mostly on cars APR actually buys to do this development on) then you would never go anywhere else .....

Nothing gets released until it has been tried and tested locally, no software from overseas loaded straight onto a customer's car without extensive testing.

I've known and used APR for well over 7 years locally in Australia and have never had bad service or a product that did not meet my expectations. Others may have different views, but there are many many non-APR horror stories out there and I have never met another person who have had a legitimate issue with theur APR products.

[ViezuAustralia]

It's a real pity that the Viezu didn't get your tune fixed, but it's good that you're finally happy with your Tiguan. That's always been the first thing in my heart even if it means I lose the customer to other brand.

Good luck with your further modifications.

Transporter, just to confirm - Tigger73's tune was fixed. His car had been suffering a hesitation - a rare thing we'd seen on a handful of cars in Australia. We have been doing ridiculous amounts of further R&D on these on the 2.0tsi's all year to ensure it doesn't happen further and whilst at it, have developed far superior files for most MED17 ecu variants too.

We (my Viezu Racing arm) had been working with tigger73 and VARdesign for packages/hardware development, and at the same time, once the issue had been confirmed and duplicated, behind the scenes Viezu Technical had been doing masses of R&D to get to the bottom of it. Main issue being it would rarely replicate.

These new files are part of the Viezu Racing program -- Viezu Racing is an arm of Viezu Oceania, all of which I run. So I had countless nights of logging and dyno sessions working with Technical to develop these tunes further (as we do locally with all the Viezu Racing files here) and see what this issue was.

Long story short, given the difficult circumstances of that car being in Adelaide where our Adelaide Dealer was only an OBD Dealer and this car at the time requiring a bench tune, it was a longer process than we like - to suitably test the files before rolling them out.
That process has been ongoing as you'd expect. However once I'd put it through its paces and it had been tested further afield too for me, I personally flew down to Adelaide before SEMA and benched this Tiguan myself. The car feels great - the tune levels on these are great. They're not 'bonkers' like the new Golf6 GTi files which have been finalised, but are linear, fast, smooth - and perfectly what we were after for them. But as I've said to Tiggy73 - as much as I know the 147 and 155tsi tunes are more than competitive, I suspect APR are turning the 125tsi into the 147 (before "tuning" it) in a manner, better than we can currently do on that particular output variant, until we do further development on that particular one, or until I can fly my Technical Team over here and access the car directly. (Which will happen this year at some point, but that's another story.)

Tiggy73's new tune was putting out some serious HP for a 125 - but when you can have it 'turned into the 147' more effectively by another tuner on this particular output variant, before then add some serious HP on top too, as APR seem to be able to do more effectively, then he'll be very happy I'm sure and add those missing KW. Tiggy73 and I discussed this at length and I suggested he will likely see those extra KW on the 125tsi with the APR tune on this occasion. If he does then my theory is right and I'll be happy - he'll be happy and all is well.

We'll continue development on the 125tsi moving forward that being the case, so we can do to it, what we can do to so many other software restricted variants before tuning them. If this is the case, the Tiggy73 will be happy and I'll be happy he's happy.

I'll try and spend some time on these forums a little over Xmas to bring everyone up to speed with new developments for 2014 - once it's ready to launch properly. But I don't want to crash Tigger73's build thread - it's meant to be a "build thread" not what it's turning into.

Any questions please ask me directly.

Cheers

Simon

[ViezuAustralia]

Nothing gets released until it has been tried and tested locally, no software from overseas loaded straight onto a customer's car without extensive testing.

Hopefully my last post addresses your wrongful intimation about our software development.

[Sharkie]

Hopefully my last post addresses your wrongful intimation about our software development

Whilst I agree this is not the place for it, unfortunately your post does nothing to make me feel more comfortable. Far from it. In fact if you read it carefully, my post addresses the extensive development APR puts into each and every tune (as a confirmation to tiggy73 that he is on the right path IMO going forward) and not any perceived lack thereof on your part.

[Ramee]

Sorry to disappoint, no K04

All I know is on the documentation I received it says the APR file is stage 2+ V1.2

Decided to get the race gas file instead of valet file. I may run race gas once whereas valet mode I can't see I would ever use.


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Yeah! I got the race gas 104 oct file and lost the valet mode(no use). But be careful not the put the car into this mode ever with 98 gas! They are pretty close you know 3 blinks & 4 blinks

Also love to see your Dyno graphs from APR and VEZU both so we can actually compare Anyway I don't think Vezuaustralia actually understand how APR create their tunes. If you dig some in to these you will see they actually reverse engineer whole ECUs and operating systems running on them, that is why they can have those fancy features like selectable multiple tune files from cruse control buttons etc. Saying APR somehow converting 125 into 147 before tuning is bit silly I guess !!

[tigger73]

Now I know car tuning is a touchy subject with people aligning themselves with various brands. However I'll say this upfront that this is not intended to start a tuner war. If you want one of these just start by posting something a little controversial in the tuner thread and wait until someone bites. What I'm looking to do here is document my experience over the last 18 months with getting hardware/software to tune my 125 TSI Tiguan.

I have gone down a path with Simon/Viezu Australia who was looking to develop hardware/tunes for the Tiguan (as well as a host of other vehicles). The reason I went with Viezu was because they offer great value for money and were the only tuner prepared to invest in developing stage 2 Tiguan hardware (exhaust systems in particular). This has actually encouraged tuners like APR to develop solutions for stage 2 Tiguans which has only benefited the end users/consumers. Without this competition, people would be left with the only option - to go and get a custom exhaust made.

[ViezuAustralia]

Saying APR somehow converting 125 into 147 before tuning is bit silly I guess !!

Hi Ramee

I'm trying to keep it in layman-terms, not give everyone a master class from the training academy.

It's how Viezu develop tunes too - I'm not sure why anyone might think differently. Reverse engineering is what you have to do when you want to develop a tune fully.

[ViezuAustralia]

Whilst I agree this is not the place for it, unfortunately your post does nothing to make me feel more comfortable. Far from it. In fact if you read it carefully, my post addresses the extensive development APR puts into each and every tune (as a confirmation to tiggy73 that he is on the right path IMO going forward) and not any perceived lack thereof on your part.

Excellent thanks for clearing that up Sharkie. I wouldn't want anyone reading this to think what I thought your post meant. And Tiggy73 and I too think this is the best path for him on his particular car. I'm the first to tell people if we have the best tune for a given vehicle. I am too the first to tell people if we don't. Simple fact is, as it stands, I suspect we are not putting out as much power as APR on the 125tsi variant - and Tiggy73 was after that from his car.
It's not an issue - any tuner would be an idiot to think they have the most power out of every single model they cover (and also have in mind some tuners do not develop tunes to give the best outright power). Some people of course don't want the dyno day champ - there are many other reasons why people chose different tuners.
I'm happy with the new ranges of tunes on the Tiguans - especially the 147 and 155, but if the 125tsi is not putting out more performance then clearly our 125tsi can have more work done. I have data from competitor tunes on my dyno back to back and know the higher output variants are competitive. I haven't back to backed a 125tsi though so I'm waiting on Tiggy73 to let us know. It will take us time to develop the 125tsi further here if that's the case - and -if- APR can already do it on this variant, Tiggy73 will be happy with his new tune and that's great - whatever the outcome.

Cheers

Simon

[tigger73]

Yeah! I got the race gas 104 oct file and lost the valet mode(no use). But be careful not the put the car into this mode ever with 98 gas! They are pretty close you know 3 blinks & 4 blinks

Yes - will be very careful here. I'll triple check when changing tune modes - particularly with the 98/104 files. I know there's almost no chance my engine will be covered under warranty so it'll be on my own head.... And no, I will not be showing my wife how to change tune modes

Also love to see your Dyno graphs from APR and VEZU both so we can actually compare

I will be getting the APR file dyno'd this week. I am interested in this comparison too, however given a 0-100 run on the freeway earlier today it may be a lot closer than a lot of people may think.

This is part of the reason that I am doing this testing and going to publish my findings, as there is very little back to back testing on identical hardware. This is almost impossible to do, however I'm looking to do this with as small a number of variables as possible. Same dyno, same car, similar weather/temp conditions with different tune files.

Anyway I don't think Vezuaustralia actually understand how APR create their tunes. If you dig some in to these you will see they actually reverse engineer whole ECUs and operating systems running on them, that is why they can have those fancy features like selectable multiple tune files from cruise control buttons etc. Saying APR somehow converting 125 into 147 before tuning is bit silly I guess !!

I don't think anyone knows how the other brands develop their files unless they have been to their development centre and worked with the file developers/tuners of the organisation. Each tuner has their own approach to file development and what they are looking to achieve. Generally they will all use a mixture of dyno and road testing.

I know APR does a lot of local development and have a lot of cars running their files which is why I have ended up putting this file on. Though I also know that Viezu do a lot of local testing and file development too. I would have to agree that APR have the edge here due to the smaller range of manufacturers/models they tune and the size of organisation so they are able to put the resources/man hours into the tune file R&D work.

Viezu has some very good Mk6 GTI files (amongst others) and the key thing with the 125TSI even though it's the same engine is to get it to "match" the 147 file before applying the same adjustments. This is probably a "gross" simplification on things, however as you can no doubt appreciate there is a difference between the 125 and 147 files. Yes they can both end up at the same place but the starting point is different.

However we're all getting a bit ahead of ourselves and will just have to wait for the dyno results later this week

[tigger73]

Tiggy73 and I too think this is the best path for him on his particular car. I'm the first to tell people if we have the best tune for a given vehicle. I am too the first to tell people if we don't. Simple fact is, as it stands, I suspect we are not putting out as much power as APR on the 125tsi variant - and Tiggy73 was after that from his car.
It's not an issue - any tuner would be an idiot to think they have the most power out of every single model they cover (and also have in mind some tuners do not develop tunes to give the best outright power). Some people of course don't want the dyno day champ - there are many other reasons why people chose different tuners.
I'm happy with the new ranges of tunes on the Tiguans - especially the 147 and 155, but if the 125tsi is not putting out more performance then clearly our 125tsi can have more work done. I have data from competitor tunes on my dyno back to back and know the higher output variants are competitive. I haven't back to backed a 125tsi though so I'm waiting on Tiggy73 to let us know. It will take us time to develop the 125tsi further here if that's the case - and -if- APR can already do it on this variant, Tiggy73 will be happy with his new tune and that's great - whatever the outcome.

Cheers

Simon

I'm still not totally discounting a hardware issue with my car - possible rear section of exhaust causing problems???

However putting on an APR tune file which has fairly well documented performance will tell me whether my slower 0-100 and suspected reduced power/torque outputs are tune or hardware related.

The difficult thing that I have had to work with is the lack of any benchmarks with the Viezu tune as the current files are pretty new and not many Tiguans (other than a couple of 147's) are running these. Other than the recent dyno day in Adelaide and posted/claimed 0-100 times from people running various tunes, I haven't had much else to benchmark my car against to know if I'm getting the expected performance/output.

I suspect my car is missing 15-20kwaw and this is what I'm chasing.

The thing I haven't done and probably in hindsight should/could have is put the car down the 1/4 mile. But then again this won't tell me whether I have a tune/hardware issue or if that's all I'm going to get from the stage 2 file/hardware.

[Ramee]

Hi Tigger, what is your 0 100 value from APR and Vezu, I am sure if you did not launch the car it will not be very good value. Also I heard even though people say 125 , 147, 155 all same engines I heard there are considerable differences in performance when under tune to get same power levels.

[tigger73]

Hi Tigger, what is your 0 100 value from APR and Vezu, I am sure if you did not launch the car it will not be very good value. Also I heard even though people say 125 , 147, 155 all same engines I heard there are considerable differences in performance when under tune to get same power levels.

non-launch 0-100 times have been relatively consistent - around 7.1-7.2sec. I ran a 7.2sec with APR file today on a 30degC day.

I have done a couple of launches with my "old" Viezu file and got 6.2sec which is quite a way from the mid 5's most people with APR tunes are achieving.

125TSI should be tuneable to the same point as 147/155TSI as hardware is identical. However it will depend if the tuners have done the work to develop the 125TSI files to the same point.

Would be interested to hear times from 125/132TSI with APR (both stage 1 and stage 2). Obviously there's also going to be some variation in terms of timing equipment etc that people use also. I've done mine using my autopolar FIS+.