Tigger73's 125TSI Tiguan Build Thread

[Ramee]

non-launch 0-100 times have been relatively consistent - around 7.1-7.2sec. I ran a 7.2sec with APR file today on a 30degC day.

I have done a couple of launches with my "old" Viezu file and got 6.2sec which is quite a way from the mid 5's most people with APR tunes .

Actually 6.2 is pretty respectable value for non race map file. And considering 7.2 for both APR and Vezu non launch times they seams to be pretty close to each other in performance level. But I am sure you should achieve better value from APR, could be a hardware issue

[tigger73]

So does anyone know definitively if the APR 147TSI and 125TSI files give the same output?

Otherwise it'll be a call on Monday.

[ViezuAustralia]

I'm still not totally discounting a hardware issue with my car - possible rear section of exhaust causing problems???

Hardware is always a difficult thing to go through - however insofar as the exhaust is concerned - the DP is a slightly tweaked Golf R DP from VARdesign which has great results, and the catback is very close in design terms of the first generation VARdesign catback for the GTi 6 Golfs - which were putting out some savage power in testing, and coupled to the new vTracks are just ridiculously fast - so your exhaust should be doing what it should be doing. What we could do with is some other Tiguans down there - I'm happy to fly down and make it worth their while with pricing just to make it happen. Could do it at a dyno day and live tune it with Technical online or something.

If it turns out to be nothing - normal - We're looking to drop a GTX onto a Tig up here as part of development - maybe you should just jump in feet first and do it I'll come down again for you and tune it and install some other development goodness whilst I'm at it

[MGV]

I was under the impression that all 4 tuned variants of the Tig would achieve the same output, ie 189kW & 400Nm (or a tad more) with a stage 1 APR tuned TSI engine. (Tiguan, also GTI, vRS)

I managed a 7.1 time a few times with my stage 1 (manual) without being too hard on the clutch upon take-off. (measured with torque pro)

[tigger73]

Hardware is always a difficult thing to go through - however insofar as the exhaust is concerned - the DP is a slightly tweaked Golf R DP from VARdesign which has great results, and the catback is very close in design terms of the first generation VARdesign catback for the GTi 6 Golfs - which were putting out some savage power in testing, and coupled to the new vTracks are just ridiculously fast - so your exhaust should be doing what it should be doing.

I'm almost certain it's not the exhaust as I was getting similar 0-100 times before the catback exhaust went on. I'm just going back to what has changed on the car.

But then again it could be that performance I'm getting is "standard" for a stage 2 tuned 125TSI.

Still looking for some comparison data as to what I should expect.

What we could do with is some other Tiguans down there - I'm happy to fly down and make it worth their while with pricing just to make it happen. Could do it at a dyno day and live tune it with Technical online or something.

We'll probably organise another dyno day early next year. I'll let you know when it's on if you want to come down - interstate visitors are always welcome to our monthly events.

If it turns out to be nothing - normal - We're looking to drop a GTX onto a Tig up here as part of development - maybe you should just jump in feet first and do it I'll come down again for you and tune it and install some other development goodness whilst I'm at it

Hmmm tempting... but I need to get to the bottom of current tune file/performance/possible hardware issues first before looking at doing anything else.

[tigger73]

I was under the impression that all 4 tuned variants of the Tig would achieve the same output, ie 189kW & 400Nm (or a tad more) with a stage 1 APR tuned TSI engine. (Tiguan, also GTI, vRS)

I was under the same impression. However now I'm not quite so sure.

I managed a 7.1 time a few times with my stage 1 (manual) without being too hard on the clutch upon take-off. (measured with torque pro)

So that must be an APR stage 1 125TSI manual (as I think the 147 only came in DSG???). Which is around the mark of what I'm seeing without using LC.

Ramee's time is 5.5sec in a tuned 155TSI DSG and Sharkie's quoted times of 5.7sec for stage1 and stage 2 manuals so my 6.2 with LC is still 0.5 to 0.7sec off . I'm still running the stock intake but don't think this really makes much difference apart from some nice intake noise.

I reckon I'm down 20-30kwaw to be dropping the 0.5-0.7 sec...

Still trying to figure out if this is tune related or hardware issue.

Anyone with an APR stage1 125TSI DSG got times to compare? I'm sure there's got a to be a few running around out there.

[Ramee]

Ramee's time is 5.5sec in a tuned 155TSI DSG and Sharkie's quoted times of 5.7sec for stage1 and stage 2 manuals so my 6.2 with LC is still 0.5 to 0.7sec off .

Anyone with an APR stage1 125TSI, , DSG got times to compare? I'm sure there's got a to be a few running around out there.

Actually there is a big difference in value when use those OBD based/ECU based 0 to 100 measuring methods, such as Torque PRO, and a real gps based 10 or 20 samples per second measuring device. So values you see may not be accurate in the first place. If you want I can send my device to you to get a proper base line. It also spit out acceleration curves too so you can actually see which part, you are missing out (takeoff or in between gears)

For example once I was seeing 5.0 sec to 5.4 sec in Torque pro. But it was not accurate. Also my mates Minicooper was doing 0 100 in 6.9 in Torque pro but only did 7.4 in PBox.

Also I read somewere 125 only accelerate up to 3/4 of the acc pedal press or something. May be you need to change the acct pedal and see or may need to use a sprint booster or similar or throttle calibration, I am just guessing here May be ECU tune already taking care of that...

[Transporter]

I just remind you guys, that the quoted increase over the stock map for many tunning brands is the increase over the kW and Nm that you already have and not what is advertised in the technical specification when the engine is manufactured, because that can fluctuate as well, and as your engine is ageing the kW are disappearing. The peak performance is on average up to 20,000km from new, after that is a downhill ride.

It's always a good idea for those who chase every kW to have thy dyno sheet before the tune and after the tune, but even the dyno figures aren't accurate and they will fluctuate. Without that the comparison means nothing to me.

IMO, the best comparison is the race track.

[Ramee]

IMO, the best comparison is the race track.

Yes, drag strip is the best place to do it. But accurate 0 to 100 will also give very good evaluation.

To me dyno sheets are not much accurate representation of car“s performance like you said because of fluctuations of readings and what is most important is not peak power but area under the curve. Also when comparing different vehicles it is not just engine power that count , how fast it could accelerate that count in the real world (specially up to speed limit.

[Transporter]

I couldn't agree more.

Sent from my GT-I9505

[tigger73]

...the story continued

So after a false start with Custom Code I spoke to Simon at Viezu about using my car as a test vehicle for VAR Design hardware he was looking to develop for the Tiguan.

Although Simon was ideally looking for a Melbourne based Tig to do these test fits, it seems that they only sell TDI's there. Well this is probably not entirely accurate but Simon was having a hard time finding anyone with a TSI in Melbourne who wanted some hardware.

So after some convincing, Simon agreed to use my car for VAR hardware development. This would involve a couple of trips to Melbourne - first for prototype development and second for test fits of production-ready hardware.

Sounds simple right??? Well I was about to find out what dealing with a large car parts manufacturer is like when they can only see small volume of sales. Lets put it this way - the Tiguan development was not exactly fast-tracked. First there was a V8 supercar emergency and engineering got pulled to work on this so my car which had been taken to Melbourne for a week of test fits sat untouched in the workshop. Ended up being there for a second week so that at least some work could get done.

So at the end of the second week I had a test-fit DP and tune.

Second trip 4 months later and I had a production-ready DP fitted. I also had to bend their arms to fit the CAI designed for the MK6 GTI. There were issues with fitment as it required relocation of the washer bottle filler, however I requested that they fit the existing intake as development of a Tig specific intake was not progressing very fast.

During this time I had been experiencing some hesitations in the 2,000-3,000 rev range - mighty annoying for normal city driving. I had a work-around by running the car in manual mode seemed to be less prominent.

I didn't seem to be getting much traction with Simon - or perhaps Simon wasn't getting traction with tech in the UK so I ended up contacting Viezu in UK directly to see if I could get some action on resolving this issue. Sounds like it was only effecting a handful of cars in Oz and not something that they'd seen elsewhere in the world.

Anyway I do know Simon has spent countless hours on resolving this issue, pulling in cars for testing, logging, running new files, etc. Meanwhile my bench tune only car is in Adelaide running with a mis-behaving tune file. It's not ideal but given my car needs to be bench tuned I don't have a lot of options for getting this done (pull ECU and send it off, drive to Melbourne or have Simon fly down).

So finally after around 12 months, I try to move things along by bringing my car back over to Melbourne for final fitment of cat-back exhaust and a new (trial) intake. Unfortunately there's still not a fix for the tune yet, so I get the non-resonated cat-back and test intake fitted and head back to Adelaide.

Turns out the "test" intake is exactly that and significantly impacts on performance. So when I get back to Adelaide I swap my stock intake back on.

And finally Viezu have got a file that is behaving so about a month ago Simon flies down to Adelaide and retunes my car. It's better - fixes the hesitation issues, however I'm left thinking that maybe there's some performance left in the car that the new tune isn't extracting.

For those that are interested here's the before and after dynos with the file with hesitation. I know this is not pretty viewing but it's part of the story so it's here for completeness. It did get fixed and if I'd got the first dyno done earlier, I'd likely have got more traction a lot sooner.

And as everyone on the forum says go with a local tuner and I can attest to that. It would have been a lot simpler if my tuner was local. I would have at least been able to put test files on my car, however given the distances and challenges with getting around the security on my bench tune ECU, I had to wait until the development of the file had been completed before getting the new file on my car.

Anyway here it is:



The second file is a lot smoother but my feeling was that it was losing out in mid-range performance.

Car is going back on the same dyno next week and will be getting the comparison between APR and Viezu.

[AdamD]

I just remind you guys, that the quoted increase over the stock map for many tunning brands is the increase over the kW and Nm that you already have and not what is advertised in the technical specification when the engine is manufactured, because that can fluctuate as well, and as your engine is ageing the kW are disappearing. The peak performance is on average up to 20,000km from new, after that is a downhill ride.

That's a good point Miro. Manufacturing tolerances these days have improved markedly, but there are still variations in output straight from the factory, and engine run-in technique can also have a significant effect on how much power an engine will produce. When we're talking an expected output of close to 200kw at the flywheel, 15kw is only 7.5% - a margin that's well within the realms of possibility to my mind. Some engines are just less powerful. I've seen this many times with mates who've been chasing big power with far more heavily-modified cars than your Tig.

Also, when it comes to measuring 0-100km/h, these benchmarks are as subject to variation as is a dyno run. Consider all these influences:
* Ambient temperature and humidity
* Measurement device accuracy
* Head/tail/cross winds
* Incline (no matter how slight)
* Launch technique varies from launch to launch (less of an issue with launch control)
* Good versus bad launch surface (less of an issue with AWD)

The main issue there as far as I'm concerned is temperature. I've measured a few launches with my car using my G-tech Pro SS Fanatic, and above, say, 25 degrees C my car is demonstrably slower - and feels slower. Technique plays a much larger part when launching a FWD with some power, but I've seen a variation of almost 2 seconds from my best time (in 3 degrees ambient) to my worst time (mid-20s ambient) on the same stretch of road. Not all of that is down to the temperature, but if you're talking a (close to accurate) 7.1 in 30-degree heat, I wouldn't be surprised to see you wipe a full second or more from that at 10 degrees.

[Transporter]

Yes, that's right, the outside temperature and efficiency of the intercooler will affect the power output and how fast the car will go. The km on the clock and how well was whole car maintained will have the measurable effect on the performance as well.
So, any test should be done under the same conditions. In Tigger73 case, having the dyno sheets from the same dyno should be enough to draw the conclusion whether his car's performance is improving or not. I'm sure he will post them as soon as he has his fresh dyno run.

[tigger73]

Well I've picked a day that is going to be as close as possible to conditions on the other two days. And yes you're going to have difference due to tyre pressures, strap down etc so it's not going to be a perfect comparison but about as good as I'm going to get.

People will read whatever they like into it but I'm looking at a number of measures - dyno, 0-100, as well as how the car drives on the road. Probably should have included 1/4 mile time and trap speed to be complete but it's a little late to do that now unfortunately.


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[ViezuAustralia]

having the dyno sheets from the same dyno should be enough to draw the conclusion whether his car's performance is improving or not.

Unfortunately I'd say that's not necessarily the case.

We've had cars putting out less or more power with our own different R&D tunes during development say, on a Golf R, and Quarter mile times can be quite different regardless of whether power is up or down over another tune on the dyno - there are a million and one other factors to consider.

Look what happened when we first launched our old Golf R Motorsport files - the very first generation was killing the quarter mile, yet we never professed to have the most top end on a dyno. (Not necessarily saying that is happening here - because there's not enough information available to comment, but food for thought)

Dyno's too are a tuning tool - and can be an indication of performance only - the drag strip will always tell us tuners more about performance of a car during development. But as Tigger73 said - he's essentially taking a holistic approach for a personal view on his tunes including some scientific (or as close to) and some personal perception, experiences and thoughts, which is far more important. Personal opinion is always subjective, but always good to know.

In addition the only way to keep it scientific on a dyno is tune the car, run it, retune the car without touching it, don't touch the bed, don't touch the straps and allow it to cool sufficiently. Conditions play a part of course, ambient temps do too, but far more important than even that is the dyno, set up, and operator - I'm yet to see a dyno Centre locally with a wind tunnel dyno - ie one that can replicate true airflow at WOT in 4th for a full run.

It will again, however, be an indication as to whether it's putting out those potentially lost KW as we hope it is for Tiggy73's sake. But there are a lot of factors meaning we can see different dyno run reports on the same car each time we strap it on. Stock, or tuned. In that regard, I'd say 0-100 and 1/4 miles are often a more important indication and far more reliable in data gathering.

In my climate up in North QLD we see temps in the low teens on the Table Lands, but also anything up to high 30's with 100% humidity this time of year so we test and do development in all manner of conditions. I find real world testing is more useful than the dyno centre.