Volkswagen under investigation over illegal software that masks pollution

[minke]

Law firms are the tightest when it comes to spending. Law firms are partnerships (expect for Slatter and Gordon and look how well that listing has gone) so the partners of the other parts of the business never want to spend money that will help another part and not their own.

Trust me - They played the media. They knew full well that their ad was never going to be aired. They targeted VW/Audi high spend stations. Thus not having to spend a cent, and claim injustice which the media lapped up. Free advertising.

[ParaBul]

... trying to meet the very latest Euro levels set in the USA, and each level is an order of magnitude harder to meet.

I went looking for the numbers again.

In my case, I believe my MY12 Mk6 GTD is expected to meet Euro 4 limits, which (for NOx) is 250mg/km. Euro 5 is 180mg/km, Euro 6 is 80mg/km. https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2...#_Toc276984498

The lowest figure I could find for Californian emissions was 50mg/mile, or about 31mg/km (after 50,000 miles / 5 years). California: Light-duty: Emissions - Transportpolicy.net

These are for a standardised laboratory test, and I don't think anybody who understands emission regulations truly expects vehicle emissions to be below these limits in the real world. So any journalist beating up a story about vehicles in the real world emitting twice the laboratory limit is an ignoramus. But up to 40 times the limit is beyond a joke. Somewhere in between would be a "reasonable" result for real-world performance.

I couldn't find absolute mg/km readings from the tests that started this debacle, but I'll assume the media have done their best to beat this up. Working on the lowest Californian "limit" I could find, and using the worst case 40x factor that has been quoted, I'll guess the highest figure they ever measured was about 1200mg/km.

Compared to the Euro 4 limit my GTD is supposed to achieve, that's nominally 4.8x the laboratory limit. For later vehicles, that were supposed to meet Euro 5 limit of 180mg/km, that multiplier is a little over 6.5x. Is that "reasonable" for real-world vs laboratory? I guess Volkswagen will be making the claim that these numbers are reasonable (in Australia, given Australian regulations), in which case the Australian delivered vehicles comply with the intent of the Australian Design Rules, and therefore nothing is wrong.

If they win this argument, then the class action(s) may fail.

The fact that they claimed ADR compliance (via the relevant Euro limits) using fraudulently obtained laboratory test results is a different issue, which is between Volkswagen and the Australian government.

[Cossor]

I went looking for the numbers again.

In my case, I believe my MY12 Mk6 GTD is expected to meet Euro 4 limits, which (for NOx) is 250mg/km. Euro 5 is 180mg/km, Euro 6 is 80mg/km. https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2...#_Toc276984498

I guess Volkswagen will be making the claim that these numbers are reasonable (in Australia, give Australian regulations), in which case the Australian delivered vehicles comply with the intent of the Australian Design Rules, and therefore nothing is wrong.

If they win this argument, then the class action(s) may fail.

The fact that they claimed ADR compliance (via the relevant Euro limits) using fraudulently obtained laboratory test results is a different issue, which is between Volkswagen and the Australian government.

Regarding Passat
Possibly the intended software upgrade may just delete the 'cheat' section. It may even be that Passat upgrade from TDI-125 to TDI-130 already incorporates the improvements to help comply. In which case if software upgrade is fitted to TDI-125 then it may actually give a small boost in performance.
However regardless of the above, once VW has developed a satisfactory solution, PROVIDING they do this before the class action goes to court, Then I also think class action will fail, at least in some respects.
I agree, the issue of ADR compliance is separate can of worms.

[arcadelt]

Then again I'm not trying to meet the very latest Euro levels set in the USA, and each level is an order of magnitude harder to meet.

I'm not sure what you mean here. The US doesn't use the Euro standards. Am I missing something?

[PassatB6]

Law firms are the tightest when it comes to spending. Law firms are partnerships (expect for Slatter and Gordon and look how well that listing has gone) so the partners of the other parts of the business never want to spend money that will help another part and not their own.

Trust me - They played the media. They knew full well that their ad was never going to be aired. They targeted VW/Audi high spend stations. Thus not having to spend a cent, and claim injustice which the media lapped up. Free advertising.

Exactly. They have now got thousands of dollars worth of advertising while spending nothing. I imagine they submitted an ad which was unpalatable to any station fully realising it would be rejected. If there was a conspiracy to avoid criticising VW, then why did every station in the country run the Dieselgate story for weeks on end?

[dinot81]

Had a look at VWA website this morning and looks like Jetta 103TDI and Tiguan 130TDI are added back to the range for sale. Same engines as before. Wonder if this is correct?

[Ryeman]

^^^^probably new 'clean' stock.

[VW Convert]

US Government Sues VAG for $20 Billion

Just reading an article on Ninemsn, says the US Government are suing VAG for $20 billion.

US government sues Volkswagen for at least $20 billion over emissions cheating

Maybe we could take up a collection?

Cheers

George

[dinot81]

We have no emissions testing for vehicles here in Oz and I think we have Euro 5 emissions laws in place just to keep up with rest of the world (even though bit behind other countries like Euro 6). Our vehicles are not subject to regular testing like in USA and Europe and nobody cares if down the track of ownership your car exceeds emissions. For example in Germany, if you have a 5 year old car and the engine due to some sort of fault emits more CO2 or NOx, you could not renew your rego until the issue has been sorted out and car is compliant again. Our cars are only subject to Safety checks and even that is very basic compared to other countries with more stringent laws. Personally doubt we could get anything out of a Class Action lawsuit like in USA. I enjoy my car like on day 1, would not sell it no matter what.

[VW Convert]

We have no emissions testing for vehicles here in Oz and I think we have Euro 5 emissions laws in place just to keep up with rest of the world (even though bit behind other countries like Euro 6). Our vehicles are not subject to regular testing like in USA and Europe and nobody cares if down the track of ownership your car exceeds emissions. For example in Germany, if you have a 5 year old car and the engine due to some sort of fault emits more CO2 or NOx, you could not renew your rego until the issue has been sorted out and car is compliant again. Our cars are only subject to Safety checks and even that is very basic compared to other countries with more stringent laws. Personally doubt we could get anything out of a Class Action lawsuit like in USA. I enjoy my car like on day 1, would not sell it no matter what.

You may be surprised to find out, there's a NSW Government vehicle emissions testing facility in Lidcombe, not that this means we carry out emissions testing on new vehicles. I know this because it is exactly 250 metres from my house, I'm not sure what they actually do there but it runs 24/7/365, I can hear it every night!

[minke]

VAG have gone to several European banks and secured a 200b euro line of credit in preparation of the fines, legal fees and fixing of vehicles. The banks in turn ask VAG to confirm the name of assets they'll sell if their income falls and they're unable to service the loan. On the chopping block are:
Ducatti
Bentley
Mann
and two others I cannot remember. I'll have to dig out the article. It was in December.

Based on that, I think VAG are expecting a much higher number.

[The_Hawk]

Sanity would say plea bargain for a lesser cash fine amount + admit various fault(s) (some of which they have already done).
Personally I would like to see the fine money go to some health organisation or something directly to show some specific outcome (like building a new hospital or two) rather than into the machine where it will just disappear.

Reality will likely be a long legal battle where the only winners are the lawyers.

[Rawcpoppa]

Plea bargain may involve buy back of affected vehicles so it's still going to be a hefty sum.

[The_Hawk]

Plea bargain may involve buy back of affected vehicles so it's still going to be a hefty sum.

I'm not suggesting they are getting it out of it cheap, but "cheapER" and quick probably beats a long drawn out trial and all the press that goes with that.

[ParaBul]

Plea bargain may involve buy back of affected vehicles so it's still going to be a hefty sum.

I don't see buy-back as a likely outcome.

I, personally, have no doubt that Volkswagen have committed fraud - others disagree. In my opinion, the major fraud was against the approvals organisations, who approved the vehicles based on fraudulently produced results. But these organisations aren't the owners of the affected vehicles.

I believe we owners are victims of fraud, in that the vehicle we own is technically not what we thought we were buying. Volkswagen is a premium brand, for which people pay a price premium, and expect premium quality - for many, that premium quality included the "clean diesel" technology that Volkswagen were touting as a premium feature. That particular feature we did not receive.

If we accept that a fraud was committed, then, technically speaking, rescission of the contract is a potential remedy - both parties are restored to the position they would've been in had the contract not been executed. This typically means the party seeking the remedy gives back all benefits obtained under the contract - how do you give back years of ownership of a vehicle? How does Volkswagen get back a factory-fresh vehicle? What is the appropriate price for buying back any given vehicle? A potential s***-storm of unimaginable proportions.

I believe that the most any court (in a modern, first world country) will award is compensation; partly a return of part of the "premium" owners paid for the "clean diesel" technology that they didn't get, partly compensation for being a "victim" of a fraud. Gut feel is that will be single-digit thousands for most vehicles, maybe getting into low double-digits for the most expensive affected vehicles, but I have no concrete basis for selecting these figures. However a suitable figure is calculated, I think it is most likely to be based on a percentage of the original purchase price, and not age or condition of the vehicle now.

So, ultimately I agree that any "Plea bargain" may include accelerated settling of class actions, but I doubt that buy-back will feature anywhere.

But I'm often wrong, so stay tuned for the announcement of a buy-back.