Volkswagen under investigation over illegal software that masks pollution

[Dutch77]

It does show the different standards applied to the Germans and hmm say the Japs.

Get busted lying to the public about deadly car faults - $1.2 billion fine.

Upset a few tree huggers - aim to destroy the company.

I know where my support will always lie.

[Rawcpoppa]

It's pretty amusing reading thru this thread and seeing apologists defend VW on this one.

[Dutch77]

LOL!

Just stating the facts.

[MIRSAD]

It's pretty amusing reading thru this thread and seeing apologists defend VW on this one.

.... +1

[wai]

It's pretty amusing reading thru this thread and seeing apologists defend VW on this one.

Well, it is equally amusing to read the posts where the whole basis and understanding of the drive cycle and emission testing is not understood. The emission levels achieved in the test using the drive cycle are NOT and NEVER were expected to be the emission levels achieved in-service. Neither is there any understanding as to the complexity and scope of engine controls for both petrol and diesel. To even suggest that the same engine parameters used for the drive cycle were ever going to be the ONLY engine parameters in-service is plainly absurd.

How a company the size of VW and with the supposed technical competence of VW simply accepted tests conducted by researchers using a series of drive cycles that have not been subjected to any form of independent review and then put their hand up to having breached some unverified test "standard" is beyond me.

The worst part is that the researchers are being applauded for having achieved the virtual destruction of a company where the basis is an untested, unverified and flawed methodology and limits that have not been justified.

[Rawcpoppa]

Volkswagen under investigation over illegal software that masks pollution

Well, it is equally amusing to read the posts where the whole basis and understanding of the drive cycle and emission testing is not understood. The emission levels achieved in the test using the drive cycle are NOT and NEVER were expected to be the emission levels achieved in-service. Neither is there any understanding as to the complexity and scope of engine controls for both petrol and diesel. To even suggest that the same engine parameters used for the drive cycle were ever going to be the ONLY engine parameters in-service is plainly absurd.

How a company the size of VW and with the supposed technical competence of VW simply accepted tests conducted by researchers using a series of drive cycles that have not been subjected to any form of independent review and then put their hand up to having breached some unverified test "standard" is beyond me.

The worst part is that the researchers are being applauded for having achieved the virtual destruction of a company where the basis is an untested, unverified and flawed methodology and limits that have not been justified.

You answered your own questions there wai. If VW did the right thing they would be the first to deny everything. The issue was never that the cars didn't emit the same emissions as the test. The issue is they tricked the results to pass the test in the first place. If the car was driven the same way as the test is except on open road it fails the test. That's fraud. That's fraud even if you want to ignore the environmental aspect. It should be noted that researchers didn't simply flag VW because it exceeded emissions standards. Like you said no one expects road tested vehicles to emit the test standard emissions but reasonable figures would be 5x over those limits. They were flagged because of the level above which they emitted NOx. Up to 40 times NOx emissions standards is shocking. Note that VW put their hands up to the REGULATORS who did their own testing AFTER the researchers. Vw did NOT put their hands up to the researchers.

I understand many of you don't care about the environmental aspect and that's fine but to defend fraud is what I find amusing.

I find it funny some say the regulations are too stringent yet the bmw with adblue met the emissions limits. VW consciously chose to NOT use urea for the EA189, realized it couldn't meet even the test results without the urea then, by VW's own admission, decided to cheat. Funnily enough VW decides to add urea treatment to their engines for the us in their latest Diesel engines even though the US hasn't adopted a more stringent emissions standard yet.

In hindsight now it is very clear why other manufacturers couldn't sell their Diesel engines in the US for cars of a certain price point.

This is a VW enthusiast website so fair enough I guess. I like certain things about the company as I drive a VW as well but I don't quite get the need to defend every single thing they do while trying to downplay obvious wrong doing and obvious negative outcomes as a result of the wrong doing.

Have a stated something that is not sanctioned by VW in terms of admittance of guilt? Why would a company of such technical prowess as VW not side with the apologists and defend itself more in this circumstance?

[brad]

Sure, everyone driving a TDI is driving the same safe car that it was before this blew up,

But it wasn't a "safe" car in terms of the long term affects on peoples health - the same as asbestos isn't safe.

[gldgti]

It's a fact of life though - the internet and the way media uses it means that the puff and fluff of getting dramatic headlines is what drives clicks and revenue. Not saying it's right, it drives me nuts, but it is the way it is. Having said that, if VW had not deliberately set out to deceive then they would not have provided the ammunition for the web to grab a-hold of. It's not like they a) didn't know what they were doing or b) didn't know the potential consequences if caught. And whether other manufacturers are doing it or not - VW got caught...

Sure, everyone driving a TDI is driving the same safe car that it was before this blew up, but what rankles people is that VW crowed about how good they were when it was a lie - regardless of whether that lie has day to day impact on anyone, the car is not what it was described as, and would not have been allowed to be put on sale in countries with tight emission controls.

"My TDI is now worth $x thousand less than it was before; I have been deceived about driving a 'green' car - why should I NOT sue??"

Because of the cost?
Supposing all the vultures get their meal, and VW fell. What good would that acheive? Everyone gets their little pound of flesh, but hundreds of thousands of people lose their job, and they never did anything wrong.
On the flip side, if nobody went chasing their few grand, the company goes on, hopefully learns from the mistake (it still gets punsihed - already has been) and all those workers and the good the money brings to the economy in the EU keeps on.
How many fewer Syrian refugees would Germany take on if VAG didn't exist?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[greymad]

...I understand many of you don't care about the environmental aspect and that's fine but to defend fraud is what I find amusing.

Totally agree.
Short sighted & selfish - "I'm alright Jack & up the rest of you".
God help the planet and our great grand children with that set of values.
Now wait for the flaming: it'll really upset me... not.

[Swallowtail]

But it wasn't a "safe" car in terms of the long term affects on peoples health - the same as asbestos isn't safe.

I agree. The intent behind my "safe" comment was day-to-day driving safe, not long term asbestos-like safe.

[team_v]

But it wasn't a "safe" car in terms of the long term affects on peoples health

How so.

What measurable impact will the higher emissions have compared to the proposed unachievable emissions limits?

[theresanothersteve]

I think the issue here is no longer the fact VW diesels do not meet mandated emissions levels as claimed but the fact VW knowingly cheated the test (and held themselves up as exemplars).

Given VW's recent history (engine reliability, DSG etc) this is another body blow to the brand. No-one, least of all an enthusiast's website, can deny the benefits of VW ownership, but the perception of VW is such that it is going to hurt the brand. Seriously.

We never bought the Jetta as a keeper, and although VW resale is not as strong as some others, it was reasonable. I don't think it will be for a while after the latest issue. The first question will be VW's viability. Does it have the cash reserves for the remedial work and fines it will inevitably have to pay? The next question is sales, which it will need to move forward. What sort of discounting or packaging will it need to increase sales. Make no mistake, they will need to increase sales if they wish to remain viable. Any discounting (or becoming insolvent) will have a knock on effect when it comes to resale time.

VW have destroyed people's trust in the brand. And, as we know, trust is something we all want in VW, that's what made them what they were a few years ago.

[Buzy_Robot]

Autogefühl calling for a balanced perspective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eddH8AfJVMk

[gldgti]

Its a massive distraction to keep talking around this issue as if its got anything to do with environmental protection.

VW diesels are (comparatively) clean and efficient. If you are going to drive a car at all, and you make any bones about envoronmental protection, then choosing a VW, including a TDI, is a better option in the scheme of things than a great deal of the competition.

This issue is completely about fraud, and I have already stated personally that this is really disappointing for me in terms of who I thought VW was, as a company, and who they really are.

I just fail to see how being anything other than hugely disappointed about the companies ethics will do any good (as I alluded in my previous post). If youre really disappointed, don't buy a VAG car ever again. But be careful where you buy your clothes and appliances too.

My opinion I suppose is that in the grand scheme, the people who are feeling like they are owed something for this breach of trust on the part of VW are the very people who stand to lose the least from it all, when all the dust settles.

Hence, I feel like it would be an injustice to see the company brought down under the veil of environmental protection, when its actually about people wanting to be compensated for some very undefinable drop in perceived value, or because they were systematically lied to.

I make no defense over the real issue for VAG here. They lied, they took a risk, and already they are racking up enormous and far reaching costs.

But I do think this pursuit of compensation, if valid, should have nothing at all do do with a justification on environmental protection grounds. Its a massive misdirection.

[Swallowtail]

Because of the cost?
Supposing all the vultures get their meal, and VW fell. What good would that acheive? Everyone gets their little pound of flesh, but hundreds of thousands of people lose their job, and they never did anything wrong.
On the flip side, if nobody went chasing their few grand, the company goes on, hopefully learns from the mistake (it still gets punsihed - already has been) and all those workers and the good the money brings to the economy in the EU keeps on.
How many fewer Syrian refugees would Germany take on if VAG didn't exist?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Hi gldgti - so companies should be allowed to behave illegally because of potential impact on Syrian refugees / national or global economy / insert other good reason here, and everyone stand by and say "No, it's OK, they are helping a good cause, we'll go light on them."

I don't think that's what you mean, but it's what it comes across as...

I agree that if VW 'fell' that would not be good for all of the above causes and reasons. But that is surely only part of the consideration. If VW are let off lightly, what happens to the next company caught, or the next company that decides to try and get away with it...