Volkswagen under investigation over illegal software that masks pollution

[kamold]

The X5 does better because it uses Adblue exhaust injection treatment to catalytically reduce NOx to C02 and water. So it's NOx emissions on road were more in line with lab scenario.

Sent from my HTC One M8 using Tapatalk

[bluey]

I find it curious that around the time the cheating is said to have started the OBD port was blocked preventing access to add a tune.

The US regulations state something like the ECU has to be tamper proof in order to maintain the engineered emissions.

Our regulations specify that vehicle OBD must collect in-use emissions performance data, which can be interrogated by regulators. (But vehicles don't have NOX sensors.)

[bluey]

The X5 does better because it uses Adblue exhaust injection treatment to catalytically reduce NOx to C02 and water. So it's NOx emissions on road were more in line with lab scenario.

Since at least 2012, US Passats have had Adblue and Passat was one of the three tested vehicles. The BMWX5 exceeded the NOX limit by up to 10x in the rural up/downhill test. I don't think the media said this.
In-use emissions testing of light-duty diesel vehicles in the U.S. | International Council on Clean Transportation

Not sure that the test rig didn't screw up the results either, with extra exhaust back pressure. A right angle T junction is as about as bad as you can get for gas flow through a join.

[kamold]

Would be surprised if an adblue equipped system would need to cheat the NOx emissions test.

Sent from my HTC One M8 using Tapatalk

[bluey]

X5 pipework is more flow-friendly in design with additional chimney effects.

[bluey]

Passat had similar unfriendly pipe setup to Jetta.

[bluey]

The WVU study has certified analysis of the fuel used but no mention at all in the paper nor certification of cetane.

[wai]

Since at least 2012, US Passats have had Adblue and Passat was one of the three tested vehicles. The BMWX5 exceeded the NOX limit by up to 10x in the rural up/downhill test. I don't think the media said this.
In-use emissions testing of light-duty diesel vehicles in the U.S. | International Council on Clean Transportation

Not sure that the test rig didn't screw up the results either, with extra exhaust back pressure. A right angle T junction is as about as bad as you can get for gas flow through a join.

You (not you personally ) have to realise that the notion of using a fixed drive cycle arose in the early 1970s when we basically had carburettors, and when fuel injection was used, it was very simple with logic hard coded and not variable. This is why it was reasonably assured that if a vehicle passed the drive cycle, and the tune was retained, then there would be a corresponding reduction in emissions.

We now have multiple computers controlling everything from fuel delivery, to ignition timing to valve activation and the like. To persist with a drive cycle is only something that politicians like. As we have seen, it is possible to have a completely different set of parameters used for the drive cycle test and then normal everyday use.

The telling thing will be when not only is there a drive cycle test carried out, but on-road exhaust emissions testing as well. It is only then what the acceptable variation between the two types of tests will be.

It is highly unlikely that the two emission limits will be the same. It will also show up the futility of car makers going to great lengths to pass the drive cycle test.

And of course, there is all the additional equipment that has to be carried to conduct the on-road test. I wonder how something like a Smart car would handle that?

[bluey]

The ICCT white paper sept 2015 considers real world data - which is why it recommends changing euro6 NOX limits for the "real world" test to double current, because nobody can comply at current levels (economically).http://goo.gl/vmAkuf

[PerthMTB]

Surprisingly the regulators in Australia are comparatively quiet. In light of no information from VAG Australia, they should as a minimum ban sales of all new VAG Diesel cars.

Speak for yourself! I'd rather not have the Diesel Tiguan I've already waited three months for delayed any further!

Anyway, what would banning sales of VAG diesels in Oz achieve? I'm still very sceptical that the 'defeat devices' specifically designed to fudge US emissions tests have any relevance to us here, and by stirring up the media circus all we'll achieve is to reduce the re-sale value of the cars, and hit the profits of VAG Australia and the dealers - and who do you think will suffer from that in the long term?

[gldgti]

Compensation for used car price falling? Please!
When you buy a new car, you do not buy any guarantee of its future value. You accept all the risk associated with the outlay of funds. You might choose to insure it against damage, but that's up to you. Regardless you accept the risk.
If VW sold double the number of cars this year and for the next 5 years, that would put similar downward pressure on used car values. Would you then have cause to want compensation?
Why people are so litigious these days I cannot fathom. The world doesn't owe you anything.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Eaglen00b]

When you buy a new car, you do not buy any guarantee of its future value.

Of course not, but I don't think that's the core issue here.

You accept all the risk associated with the outlay of funds. You might choose to insure it against damage, but that's up to you. Regardless you accept the risk.

Not quite. Any risks borne by the purchaser are duly CONSIDERED risks on the basis of information available and disclosures made to the purchaser by VW when at the stage of deciding whether or not to commit to buy.

If VW disclosed up front their emissions results were achieved (as we now know) under tightly controlled, highly specific lab conditions, with the engine management software detecting the test and going into on "emissions test mode" (an inbuilt function), it is probably reasonable to surmise that a reasonable person would most likely be able to deduce that in real life, daily driving the results will differ and take this into due consideration. However in my case for example, even with such disclosures and information, I would still probably have bought my VW anyway , but hey at least I KNEW about the (potential) issue!

To me, there's a very obvious and clear distinction between what's considered reasonable expectation of fair, used value and such used value being (potentially) adversely affected after the manufacturer/supplier's deceptive misrepresentation of the performance of the product comes to light post sale.

This is why we have legislation such as the ACL in place to protect the general public from unconscionable sales conduct and practices.

If VW sold double the number of cars this year and for the next 5 years, that would put similar downward pressure on used car values. Would you then have cause to want compensation?

I think this is a highly speculative scenario which is neither realistic nor foreseeable, so it's highly unlikely for any remedies pursued on this basis to have any reasonable prospect of success. VW can't be held responsible for resale prices if the particular model becomes a runaway success because it hits the sweet spot of the market, nor similarly if it becomes an unmitigated sales disaster because it was the wrong market at the wrong time or quite simply a dud.


E.N.

[brad]

I think this is a highly speculative scenario which is neither realistic nor foreseeable, .

I would have said the same about VW cheating on emissions tests...

[dero]

THE monster question is, irrespective of whether 'our' cars are involved,
what is going to happen to used car values?.....surely not at all good and what compensation?.

Compensation for used car price falling? Please!
When you buy a new car, you do not buy any guarantee of its future value. You accept all the risk associated with the outlay of funds. You might choose to insure it against damage, but that's up to you. Regardless you accept the risk.

Very fair comment but the car buyer goes into the aspect of purchasing a vehicle with the knowledge that yes, over time the value of the vehicle goes down along the line of the general perceived value of the brand and the perceived value of the model against the similar models it is competing against in the marketplace.


The affect of the news that VW has been cheating its emissions is world wide and far reaching. I would guess that the average car buyer wouldn't be thinking how much emissions are coming out of the tail pipe when buying a car, but with the effect of the news having come out with the figure being thrown about of "40x regulation limits", you could be sure that more than a few potential car buyers would now go... "Ick! Diesel engine, noxious fumes were said about it in the news..." and the value of the vehicle purely because of the effect of the negative news goes down at a much greater rate. It may even make the vehicle unsellable second hand in the marketplace.


VW has an obligation that as part of their having originally sold the car to you that they lied about to deal with you now fairly. I would think that there should be something like a guaranteed second hand sale/trade value should you wish to replace the car as a consequence of these events.


I can't imagine that they'll buy your car second hand but I could imagine they'd be willing to trade your car in for something which is not being sold as a lie.


If they deliver a good price for trade in of my Passat, I'd probably be inclined to take it and pick up a replacement petrol car. Newer tech, MQB platform, more driver's fruit. I'd probably look into the efficency of the petrol first though I guess before deciding to go one way or another.

[Ryeman]

Our Peugeot 308 1.2 triple is a revelation in the way it performs, with diesel-like torque at diesel-like revs with petrol power revability.
Love it.