Tigger73's 125TSI Tiguan Build Thread

[team_v]

Definitely interested to hear the results of the dyno day.
Is it an AWD capable dyno?

[MGV]

Be interesting to find out what the car is putting out now with the new S3 intercooler installed. I'm guessing it'll be in the 150-160kwaw area.

When it comes to measuring power/torque, is there a factor that converts from crank to wheels & vice versa, or are manufacturers figures (& tuners) actually measured with some sort of dynamometer attached the engine?

[tigger73]

Definitely interested to hear the results of the dyno day.
Is it an AWD capable dyno?

Yes it's an AWD dyno so no disengaging the tailshaft/rear diff. Good thing is it's the same dyno I've been running on so hopefully I can get some good comparative data from previous runs as long as the ambient conditions are going to be similar.

When it comes to measuring power/torque, is there a factor that converts from crank to wheels & vice versa, or are manufacturers figures (& tuners) actually measured with some sort of dynamometer attached the engine?

They connect up to the OBD port under the dash and take the engine RPM and other engine parameters from there. The figures that you get are a kwaw figure (calculated from the dyno rollers) and not a crank figure. You have to take off the drive-line losses to work out what the crank figure would be.

Unfortunately I don't have a "stock" dyno result so I'm not sure what the % driveline loss is for the Tig. Though I know that the actual engine output is likely higher than the "advertised" 125kW.

My previous dyno figures were a little disappointing when you compare it to other cars of similar power output. However now that I have the S3 intercooler installed I think it should be back to where I'd expected it to be. Not that the intercooler makes any power in itself but I'm convinced the old stock one was sapping power.

[brad]

, or are manufacturers figures (& tuners) actually measured with some sort of dynamometer attached the engine?

manufacturers quote power "at the flywheel" measured directly using an engine dynomometer not a rolling road. Conversion from kwATW to kwATF or vice-versa is at best an educated guess due to all the variables between flywheel & tyres (including tyre size & pressure). Then the variables between dynomometer setup, operator, brand, weather conditions, etc.

[Guy_H]

From our own dyno measuring in house here (where we are doing our best to measure Engine power - not wheel), the DQ500 transmission pulls another 8 - 10% out of the motor by the time it gets to the front hubs when directly compared to the DQ 250 in the Golf GTI & Golf R.

So mod per mod - at the wheels or hubs, you will never hit the same as the small gearbox brothers.

[tigger73]

From our own dyno measuring in house here (where we are doing our best to measure Engine power - not wheel), the DQ500 transmission pulls another 8 - 10% out of the motor by the time it gets to the front hubs when directly compared to the DQ 250 in the Golf GTI & Golf R.

So mod per mod - at the wheels or hubs, you will never hit the same as the small gearbox brothers.

...but then on the positive side we hopefully won't destroy our gearbox either.

On that front I'm interested to find out what modifications you've made to the DQ500 DSG in your Stage 3 Tig (if any). And at what point you'd recommend upgrading the internals.


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[team_v]

From our own dyno measuring in house here (where we are doing our best to measure Engine power - not wheel), the DQ500 transmission pulls another 8 - 10% out of the motor by the time it gets to the front hubs when directly compared to the DQ 250 in the Golf GTI & Golf R.

So mod per mod - at the wheels or hubs, you will never hit the same as the small gearbox brothers.

That is interesting to know.
I have heard 20% loss or so for the 4motion system.

Still, i would rather the DQ500 than the DQ200/250.

[Guy_H]

...but then on the positive side we hopefully won't destroy our gearbox either.

On that front I'm interested to find out what modifications you've made to the DQ500 DSG in your Stage 3 Tig (if any). And at what point you'd recommend upgrading the internals.


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I agree - the clutches are so much bigger - its an awesome upgrade from the poor little DQ 250. Our Tiguan, The K04 Tiguans & TTRS's are all holding up really well - all with stock clutches & our DSG software.

[Wynnston]

I'm still puzzled as to why they don't put the DQ500 DSG into the new GTI or at least the R. Unless it's cost related. I thought it might be a little bigger and not fit, but the TTRS and RS3 blew that argument out the window.

[AdamD]

I'm still puzzled as to why they don't put the DQ500 DSG into the new GTI or at least the R. Unless it's cost related. I thought it might be a little bigger and not fit, but the TTRS and RS3 blew that argument out the window.

My guess is it's deemed overkill (or, rather, overly expensive), as neither the GTI nor the R require it from a torque perspective.

[tigger73]

Todays dyno results:

[team_v]

Now that is a smooth power curve!
First time i have seen speed on the x axis rather than RPM.

[MGV]

Yes, looks great, Damien! Just after some scientific explanations... (again probably related to flywheel vs wheels quoted figures):

The losses through the drivetrain make sense & the gains from stock to tuned have been well documented here. The rather large increase in torque - stock to stage 1 (APR quoted) is something like 280Nm up to 400Nm.

I guess my main question is, is that max torque figure of 699Nm based on something other than the above figures?

[tigger73]

Now that is a smooth power curve!
First time i have seen speed on the x axis rather than RPM.

Yes. Normal dyno operator was away so some of the results/graphs weren't set up quite as per normal. Speed instead of RPM on the x-axis and uncorrected torque vs derived torque being the other.

However in terms of comparison results you still get the picture of the relative performance of each car. Full results here: http://www.vwwatercooled.com/forums/...ml#post1059207

[team_v]

700NM or toque does sound like a lot.
I guess since we usually see Max torque not total, i don't know how to interpret that one.