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  • Originally posted by Jamanta View Post
    Now someone is translating things to my language. I love charts!
    Red wins my vote for street driving.

    Continue the interesting discussion. I'll keep reading.
    Note that the graph's are running 93Ron fuel though.
    I am only running 98Ron BP Ultimate in the Tiguan so power should be a bit higher.
    My Tiguan TSI APR Stg2 + RPF1's

    Comment


    • Originally posted by team_v View Post
      The turbo outlet pipe and intercooler would be worthy upgrades if you need more power.

      Actually that won't help. AWE cheats with the pictures. The airflow through both are identical. The 1 is round and the other is oval (which you cant see properly in the photo) and the internal volume of air flowed is identical. So no gains here ....

      Also, the APR graphs are USA graphs and their 93 = our 98 .... so no more power I'm afraid.
      Current: 2023 MY23 T-Roc R Lapiz Blue + Beats Audio + Black pack 2018 MY19 Golf R manual Lapiz Blue + DAP) 2014 Amarok TSI Red (tuned over 200kw + lots of extras) 2013 Up! manual Red 2017 Polo GTI manual Black Previous VWs and some others ...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sharkie View Post
        Actually that won't help. AWE cheats with the pictures. The airflow through both are identical. The 1 is round and the other is oval (which you cant see properly in the photo) and the internal volume of air flowed is identical. So no gains here ....

        Also, the APR graphs are USA graphs and their 93 = our 98 .... so no more power I'm afraid.

        Ahh, well that is a shame.
        I was wondering why they would be using 93Ron fuel but their Ron rating is different (as you pointed out, is equivalent to our 98Ron)


        I was hoping the AWE pipe would be more useful as they were spruking it as a beneficial piece of kit.
        Their claim is a 30% increase in volume over stock and a 5-6kw increase in power at the engine.
        AWE has announced a nice upgrade for your TSI engine. The factory TSI turbo outlet pipe (a.k.a. pancake pipe), is not optimized for airflow. With 30% more



        So the only other upgrades are the intercooler, exhaust and possibly the flywheel.
        Other than that it's stage 3.
        Last edited by team_v; 04-08-2010, 03:54 PM.
        My Tiguan TSI APR Stg2 + RPF1's

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sharkie View Post
          I'd be looking at a K04 as well when they make it out ....

          The APR downpipe cause the turbo to spool up 800rmin lower in the rev range and thats where the increased low down punch comes from. Its awesome as far as a power mod goes .... my wife DID NOT LIKE the rasping sound it makes .... so bear that in mind.

          interesting read on the APR FMIC in your thread Karl, if you got it off APR here you would have received the piping and fitting s with it ..... but at $1995 .... its good, but only worth 3-4kw atw dyno tested unlike the DP thats got 7 ..... it all adds up though ....

          Problem with the FMIC is that it increases lag slightly where the DP reduces it. Combining both means you hit the sweet spot .....
          The APR FMIC came with piping, but for the GTI configuration - the intercooler sits in a slightly different position in relation to the engine, APR do not make specific piping for the Tiguan - it wasn't a big effort to modify it at the end of the day

          APR claim 15hp atw with their intercooler over stock, which equates to about 11kW - I've known APR to be conservative at times with their dyno figures compared to other companies.

          The other factor is the testing was done on a DYNO - the real world application is only going to amplify the effects of an intercooler - a typical dyno fan will only push out 15km/h of "wind", so to speak - NOTHING like the speed and volume that the intercooler would see on the street.

          At the end of the day, I believe there are too many variables on a dyno, particularly with products like intakes and cooling - you have to rely on "bum in seat" feeling or another means of measurable performance, and my "bum in seat" feeling says the gains are very significant with the APR intercooler

          As far as lag - nothing's changed from stock, it's no better or worse in that regard!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by krracing View Post
            Thanks for the pics team_v - how hideous is the stock pipe!? Who does that, honestly, putting a great big catalytic converter STRAIGHT off the turbo!? pfff, german engineering

            Any pics of the new DP at the turbo connection/flange??....

            Very jealous mate - hope you have fun with it on the weekend!
            As promised, a shot of the connection where the new downpipe joins the turbo.
            The black pipe i assume has to do with the 4Mo system as that was the main concern with the prototype.

            Last edited by team_v; 06-08-2010, 01:03 PM.
            My Tiguan TSI APR Stg2 + RPF1's

            Comment


            • Originally posted by team_v View Post
              Ahh, well that is a shame.
              I was wondering why they would be using 93Ron fuel but their Ron rating is different (as you pointed out, is equivalent to our 98Ron)


              I was hoping the AWE pipe would be more useful as they were spruking it as a beneficial piece of kit.
              Their claim is a 30% increase in volume over stock and a 5-6kw increase in power at the engine.
              TSI Turbo Outlet Pipe | VW Tuning Mag


              So the only other upgrades are the intercooler, exhaust and possibly the flywheel.
              Other than that it's stage 3.
              AWE used to have that same claim on their website until the other tuners in the USA challenged it with tested flow figures .... AWE has since then removed those claims from their website which is the same as an admittal to me that their claims was invented and could not be substantiated.
              Current: 2023 MY23 T-Roc R Lapiz Blue + Beats Audio + Black pack 2018 MY19 Golf R manual Lapiz Blue + DAP) 2014 Amarok TSI Red (tuned over 200kw + lots of extras) 2013 Up! manual Red 2017 Polo GTI manual Black Previous VWs and some others ...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sharkie View Post
                AWE used to have that same claim on their website until the other tuners in the USA challenged it with tested flow figures .... AWE has since then removed those claims from their website which is the same as an admittal to me that their claims was invented and could not be substantiated.
                Yeah i was a bit wearisome as it didn't look that much better.
                Oh well, Stage 2 is more than enough for me
                My Tiguan TSI APR Stg2 + RPF1's

                Comment


                • Originally posted by krracing View Post
                  The APR FMIC came with piping, but for the GTI configuration - the intercooler sits in a slightly different position in relation to the engine, APR do not make specific piping for the Tiguan - it wasn't a big effort to modify it at the end of the day

                  APR claim 15hp atw with their intercooler over stock, which equates to about 11kW - I've known APR to be conservative at times with their dyno figures compared to other companies.

                  The other factor is the testing was done on a DYNO - the real world application is only going to amplify the effects of an intercooler - a typical dyno fan will only push out 15km/h of "wind", so to speak - NOTHING like the speed and volume that the intercooler would see on the street.

                  At the end of the day, I believe there are too many variables on a dyno, particularly with products like intakes and cooling - you have to rely on "bum in seat" feeling or another means of measurable performance, and my "bum in seat" feeling says the gains are very significant with the APR intercooler

                  As far as lag - nothing's changed from stock, it's no better or worse in that regard!
                  You will notice that APR Aus do not claim any power increases from the intercoolers on their website. This I believe from conversations with Guy, is exactly that the Dyno results vary too much to be of any use .... too many factors that cannot be controlled in there .... the consensus though is that on average its worth 3-5kw atw ..... and it does increase lag. On the TSI's this may not be as noticable, but common physics dictate that it must. You have a larger space (over 100%) that needs to be filled with extra air which makes response a little bit slower.

                  It is a great mod though and if I wanted more performance 1 I would definately have gone for. APR Aus would have sold you the intercooler with all the piping that worked, even if it had to be custom made, as I believe they are keen for a prototype fitment for 1 lucky customer.

                  In the end you're still ahead as a bit of custom piping does not cost $1K+ .....
                  Current: 2023 MY23 T-Roc R Lapiz Blue + Beats Audio + Black pack 2018 MY19 Golf R manual Lapiz Blue + DAP) 2014 Amarok TSI Red (tuned over 200kw + lots of extras) 2013 Up! manual Red 2017 Polo GTI manual Black Previous VWs and some others ...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sharkie View Post
                    You will notice that APR Aus do not claim any power increases from the intercoolers on their website. This I believe from conversations with Guy, is exactly that the Dyno results vary too much to be of any use .... too many factors that cannot be controlled in there .... the consensus though is that on average its worth 3-5kw atw ..... and it does increase lag. On the TSI's this may not be as noticable, but common physics dictate that it must. You have a larger space (over 100%) that needs to be filled with extra air which makes response a little bit slower.

                    It is a great mod though and if I wanted more performance 1 I would definately have gone for. APR Aus would have sold you the intercooler with all the piping that worked, even if it had to be custom made, as I believe they are keen for a prototype fitment for 1 lucky customer.

                    In the end you're still ahead as a bit of custom piping does not cost $1K+ .....
                    Hey Johan,

                    APR - High Performance Development for Audi, VW and Porsche Vehicles.

                    APR Australia also claim 15hp+ atw for the record - refer to the link above.
                    9th paragraph down, including a nice big image of the dyno graph!

                    Anyway, I'll take it back down to the drags come September to see an "accurate, measurable" outcome reduced variables and all..

                    Comment


                    • Post updated above with the actual picture, i must have forgotten to link it in:

                      See here:
                      My Tiguan TSI APR Stg2 + RPF1's

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by krracing View Post
                        Hey Johan,

                        APR - High Performance Development for Audi, VW and Porsche Vehicles.

                        APR Australia also claim 15hp+ atw for the record - refer to the link above.
                        9th paragraph down, including a nice big image of the dyno graph!

                        Anyway, I'll take it back down to the drags come September to see an "accurate, measurable" outcome reduced variables and all..
                        Sorry, yes, missed that on their site, however .... its a direct copy off the American site ... APR 2.0T Intercooler Concept and not reflective of testing carried out in Australia .... and stage II as mentioned in the dyno figures will include an exhaust as well so the results are a bit more cumulative as stock exhaust + stock intercooler vs stock exhaust + APR intercooler.

                        In local testing here on 6 GTIs on the same day we found that stock exhaust + mod intercooler = 4-5kw atw, downpipe + stock intercooler = 7-8kw and downpipe + mod intercooler = 17kw atw .... more than simply adding the 5+8 (=13) together ....

                        Agree, looking forward to seeing the drag results as this is where you will actually see the best results .... time slips count for much more than dyno figures anyway ...
                        Current: 2023 MY23 T-Roc R Lapiz Blue + Beats Audio + Black pack 2018 MY19 Golf R manual Lapiz Blue + DAP) 2014 Amarok TSI Red (tuned over 200kw + lots of extras) 2013 Up! manual Red 2017 Polo GTI manual Black Previous VWs and some others ...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sharkie View Post
                          ..... and it does increase lag. On the TSI's this may not be as noticable, but common physics dictate that it must. You have a larger space (over 100%) that needs to be filled with extra air which makes response a little bit slower.
                          .....
                          I think your definition of "lag" is a little mistaken mate - turbo-lag is the time in which it takes a turbo to "spool up" to a speed in which it can function effectively. A larger turbo will take more time to spool up for example. Basically, the exhaust pressure has to overcome the rotational inertia of the turbine itself, therefore, the factors that effect "turbo-lag" can be the diameter of the turbo inlet, or the aspect ratio, the mass of the turbine fan itself, the friction created in the bearings, the response of the wastegate and finally the volume and velocity of the exhaust gases that are flowing into the turbo.

                          By having a larger intercooler is not going to effect the flow of gases into the turbo, and certainly won't effect the turbo's make-up itself.

                          Basically, the turbo will spool-up as quickly and effectively as before.

                          What I think you're suggesting is there is a higher volume of air between the turbo and the intake manifold - and I would totally agree with this, but a "vacuum" is not created in this section of piping when you back off the throttle or when you're at idle, there is still a volume or mass of air that remains at all times, and it will flow at all times. As long as the engine is running, it will need air flowing through it.
                          It may start off slightly leaner RIGHT down low in the rev range, but the lag you're talking about is all turbo and pre-turbo related!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by krracing View Post
                            I think your definition of "lag" is a little mistaken mate - turbo-lag is the time in which it takes a turbo to "spool up" to a speed in which it can function effectively. A larger turbo will take more time to spool up for example. Basically, the exhaust pressure has to overcome the rotational inertia of the turbine itself, therefore, the factors that effect "turbo-lag" can be the diameter of the turbo inlet, or the aspect ratio, the mass of the turbine fan itself, the friction created in the bearings, the response of the wastegate and finally the volume and velocity of the exhaust gases that are flowing into the turbo.

                            By having a larger intercooler is not going to effect the flow of gases into the turbo, and certainly won't effect the turbo's make-up itself.

                            Basically, the turbo will spool-up as quickly and effectively as before.

                            What I think you're suggesting is there is a higher volume of air between the turbo and the intake manifold - and I would totally agree with this, but a "vacuum" is not created in this section of piping when you back off the throttle or when you're at idle, there is still a volume or mass of air that remains at all times, and it will flow at all times. As long as the engine is running, it will need air flowing through it.
                            It may start off slightly leaner RIGHT down low in the rev range, but the lag you're talking about is all turbo and pre-turbo related!
                            Sorry, yes, wasn't clear what I meant by lag .... whilst the air is always flowing through the system as you said, its not always pressurized at the same level .... just off idle you will find that the pressure is actually very low in the system between the engine and the turbo. (Best seen on a boost gauge where the manifold pressure can be as low as -0.4bar off boost) So when you get on it, it has to pressurize the whole space (which with the intercooler is now much larger) to 1+bar and this takes a little bit longer than on stock and this time difference can be both measured and felt.

                            Feeling this difference in time as almost exactly the same as feeling turbo lag, even though I agree its not technically the same thing.
                            Current: 2023 MY23 T-Roc R Lapiz Blue + Beats Audio + Black pack 2018 MY19 Golf R manual Lapiz Blue + DAP) 2014 Amarok TSI Red (tuned over 200kw + lots of extras) 2013 Up! manual Red 2017 Polo GTI manual Black Previous VWs and some others ...

                            Comment


                            • Another bit of an update for you.

                              Had a proper go of the APR stage 2 on the weekend.
                              The power is just insane, always on tap seemingly from 1000RPM and pulls hard right up through to the red.
                              Induction noise sounds great with the windows down.
                              Slight rasp to the downpipe but my stock one was more raspy so it doesn't bother me.

                              Fuel economy tends to suffer due to the newfound power which put my total average up to 11l/100km.
                              On the trip home i reset the trip meter and it wavered between 7.5-8l/100km so if driving for economy, the downpipe and intake seem to either better fuel economy or keep it even.

                              Also gave it a hose down as it had a layer of dust over it.
                              First one is during the rinse with all the water beading (thankyou nanolex sealant)
                              Second one is when it was dried (used stupid shamwow, need a microfibre towel which i am getting this week)



                              My Tiguan TSI APR Stg2 + RPF1's

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                              • Shamwow!!! LOL So you definitely noticed a power difference with the DP?
                                2008 VRS Wagon. Yellow, very yellow!
                                Forever blowing bubbles.

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