Why you need to use 504/507 oils in FSI/TSI/TDI engines!

[joel0407]

A genuine question about VW and oils, so please don't flame.

There seems to be very strong view that only VW approved oils are adequate for our cars and that anything less may be disastrous. There must be many less well off or remote places where the correct VW approved oils are not available or Joe from the local garage uses the incorrect oil. Surely VW must have factored this into their engineering otherwise we would be hearing about thousands of failed VW. I understand that a low SAPS oil is required to extend the life of the DPF but why can't a low SAPS oil approved for BMW, Mercedes Benz, Renault or Hyundai with long drain, 15,000 km service intervals provide similar protection for our VWs.

Just curious.

I service my Passat at the dealer which use the VW approved Castrol oil.

I'm with you there in that question mate. I'm also interested is there better oils than what's recommended. If I own a 1970 model Toyota corolla, I don't have to use the best Synthetic oil but I can.

Happy Days

[Transporter]

If I own a 1970 model Toyota corolla, I don't have to use the best Synthetic oil but I can.

Happy Days

You'd be taking the risk by doing that.

Also, any high quality oil that is approved for others like BMW, MB would be at least as expensive as the 507.00 oil.

A genuine question about VW and oils, so please don't flame.

There must be many less well off or remote places where the correct VW approved oils are not available or Joe from the local garage uses the incorrect oil.

I service my Passat at the dealer which use the VW approved Castrol oil.

Even that Joe in a local garage in the middle of the nowhere still has a postal address, doesn't he. So, how come anyone can order the right oil but not him?

[brad]

Be careful when you buy the Mobil1 ESP oil (probably any oil) on line for a good price. The chances are, that it is a rebadged oil form the US and therefor it's not made the same way as a legally bought Mobil1 ESP from the AU distributor. However, if you bought the oil on line, then perhaps keep your invoice and the empty bottle that should have the batch no. on it. Though, I don't like your chances, if you have to chase the ebay seller when something goes wrong with your engine and the engine oil is there to blame.

Are you saying it is counterfeit (like buying an Ar5enal Football shirt or an Omiga watch off ebay)?

Or are you saying that Mobil1 in Australia is different to Mobil1 in USA?

[brad]

A genuine question about VW and oils, so please don't flame.

There seems to be very strong view that only VW approved oils are adequate for our cars and that anything less may be disastrous. There must be many less well off or remote places where the correct VW approved oils are not available or Joe from the local garage uses the incorrect oil. Surely VW must have factored this into their engineering otherwise we would be hearing about thousands of failed VW. I understand that a low SAPS oil is required to extend the life of the DPF but why can't a low SAPS oil approved for BMW, Mercedes Benz, Renault or Hyundai with long drain, 15,000 km service intervals provide similar protection for our VWs.

Just curious.

I service my Passat at the dealer which use the VW approved Castrol oil.

If there were thousands of VWs failing due to using the "wrong oil" then VW would just say "see, I told you what to use & this is what happens when you are naughty & don't listen". Using VW Approved oils is the safe option - especially when there are a few oil burners in the line-up & people are trying to get good-will fixes.

Look in the manual & it gives alternative oils that can be used if 504/507 is unavailable although I think if you have deisel with DPF there are no options.

Sometimes if your stuck you have to make an educated guess as to what will/won't work. My Galant ran out of oil in 1989 & the only oil readily available was full synthetic oil without an additive pack for an RB211 Rolls Royce turbojet. All the other guys in the workshop told me I was mad to use it but the alternative was running it with the oil level off the dipstick (stupid 3L sump). Topped it up & it seemed fine. Left it in there as the car was just a *****box anyway. I think some of the seals started leaking eventually but more went out the exhaust than wwhat hit the ground.

The problem is, who's going to be brave enough to say on a forum "I use brand X. It doesn't comply with the manufacturers recomendation but it's working just fine for me".
a) Everyone says "But you haven't spent millions of dollars in research & done millions of miles testing like >insert manufacturers name<".
b) Someone takes your advice & lunches an engine. Maybe it's got nothing to do with the oil but suddenly your name is mud.

I used to try & explain that for 15k oil changes every other country uses 502.00 & that 504.00 is for the variable service regime. I was told I was wrong even when I posted photos of the owners manual saying the same thing. I've given up. Not worth worth it anymore. You might find more open minds elsewhere.

A mate of mine runs Amsoil in his Lexus. He can rattle off all the technical reasons & numbers why it's better than what the manufacturer reccommends. I believe him as he's done a lot of research. I couldn't be bothered researching at the moment so i stick with 502.00 or 504.00. Amsoil says they don't bother with certifications as they'd rather invest in oil R&D than buying licences - makes sense. I'm sure there are other good oils that would be fine in our VWs too.

[Amalgam]

Thanks for the replies.

I understand that our best option is to use a VW approved oil as it will maintain our warranty.

My question is not price related as I understand that all good oils will cost about the same. This question is if you are stuck out in the middle of nowhere and are low on oil or need an oil change and you are 2000km from VW oil, I shouldn't loose sleep in using a high quality non VW approved oil in a TSI engine. I appreciate that you should be better prepared if you are traveling into the never never and that by being on this forum we would be, but there are Mr & Mrs Average touring the outback in their Touareg that are less OCD.

VW are manufactured in South Africa, Mexico, Brazil and China. What do they do if they are in the middle of the amazon and need oil??

[Transporter]

Are you saying it is counterfeit (like buying an Ar5enal Football shirt or an Omiga watch off ebay)?

Or are you saying that Mobil1 in Australia is different to Mobil1 in USA?

On the first one you need to figure it out.

On the second one you're right.

[brad]

I doubt they even make M1 in AUS. We don't make anything here.

Rather than being all cryptic & mysterious, perhaps you could post some links that explain what you are talking about?

[Transporter]

You might find more open minds elsewhere.

Like in here PD cam failure - Data collection thread - TDIClub Forums I must admit that many in US tried to use a different oil and even monitored their UOA but still their diesel engines had failed.

You can be open minded when you have the TSI engine, but I wouldn't be experimenting too much with the late model TDI engine.

[brad]

My question is not price related as I understand that all good oils will cost about the same. This question is if you are stuck out in the middle of nowhere and are low on oil or need an oil change and you are 2000km from VW oil, I shouldn't loose sleep in using a high quality non VW approved oil in a TSI engine. I appreciate that you should be better prepared if you are traveling into the never never and that by being on this forum we would be, but there are Mr & Mrs Average touring the outback in their Touareg that are less OCD.

VW are manufactured in South Africa, Mexico, Brazil and China. What do they do if they are in the middle of the amazon and need oil??

If it was me I'd find the best quality oil that I could that is as close as possible to the manufacturers recomended viscosity, drive in a manner that possibly isn't stressing the engine as much as usual & change it out at the earliest opportunity.

I still think that if there are no other choices, 5 litres of K-marts homebrand 20w-50 is better than nothing at all.

If I was in the Amazon? Just walk over to one of those sticky black pits of oil waste that Exxon left behind & fill up from there

[Transporter]

I doubt they even make M1 in AUS. We don't make anything here.

Rather than being all cryptic & mysterious, perhaps you could post some links that explain what you are talking about?

Mobil1 ESP5W30 officially sold in Au is made in France and is made from group4 base oil rather than from refined mineral oil (group3 base oil). The Mobil1 from US would be made from group3 base oil, since the law in US allows the oil manufacturers to use group3 base oil and still put on label "Synthetic" .



Sent from my GT-N8000

[brad]

Like in here PD cam failure - Data collection thread - TDIClub Forums I must admit that many in US tried to use a different oil and even monitored their UOA but still their diesel engines had failed.

You can be open minded when you have the TSI engine, but I wouldn't be experimenting too much with the late model TDI engine.

That's tops. Reference to a 2009 thread on Pump Duese Engines that VW no longer sell, referring to a specific problem with the cams that at a cursory glance appears to be unavoidable even if the correct VW oil was used. Sounds more like a materials engineering issue than a lubrication issue.

[brad]

Mobil1 ESP5W30 officially sold in Au is made in France and is made from group4 base oil rather than from refined mineral oil (group3 base oil). The Mobil1 from US would be made from group3 base oil, since the law in US allows the oil manufacturers to use group3 base oil and still put on label "Synthetic" .

[ATTACH]8517[/ATTACH]

Sent from my GT-N8000

Thanks

Interesting information.

[Transporter]

That's tops. Reference to a 2009 thread on Pump Duese Engines that VW no longer sell, referring to a specific problem with the cams that at a cursory glance appears to be unavoidable even if the correct VW oil was used. Sounds more like a materials engineering issue than a lubrication issue.

Ok, lets do it again then, start experimenting with the current engines and maybe we can read all about it in 5 years time.

Now, put the tempting to prove who is wrong and who is right aside and also consider the facts that there are many PD engines made before 2006 which didn't fail and are still running.

I saw a few T5s with 5cyl. PD engine where the owner thought that he knew better, after all he followed the forums where many open minded people posted and he used Penrite HPRDiesel 5W40 right from the first oil change and his cam failed at 85,000km.

[brad]

transporter
We both know the safe answer to anyone asking "what oil should I use" is "refer VW recomndation" but that's not the question that was being asked.

You are right, I'm sure there are many PD engines that were made before 2006 that are still running and a percentage of them probably haven't used the recomended VW oil.

Sure, you know 1 guy who's engine croaked but what about all the other guys who's engines didn't croak? Was the cam failure due to a failure in the lubricant or due to a materials engineering failure in the cam itself? How was this failure diagnosis verified?

If the VW recomended lubricant is the only choice for VW engines then why does it appear that so many members of this forum & other forums are experiencing engine failures & excessive oil consumption when they have run their engines in IAW the manufacturers specification?

If the VW recomendations are so good then why is it that you personally choose to ignore VWs recomended change intervals? Surely you can't just pick & choose the technical information that suits your stance but ignore the other information that you disagree with?

It would be an outright mistruth to state or believe that (for instance) VW504.00/507.00 is the pinnacle of lubrication chemistry & that no alternatives exist.

Anyway, I think you've proved what I was saying earlier, so thanks for that.

[Transporter]

I've never agreed with the VW recommended oil change intervals and was always saying that the engine lasts longer in a better condition when the engine oil is changed more frequently. Just look how many transmissions fail these days.

I would have to have rocks in my head to assume that VW507.00 is the best universal engine oil out there. But it's the safest choice for your VAG engine especially for the TDI.

I was Amsoil oils distributor in Adelaide for a few years, it is one of the best synthetic oils, but would I use it in my MY05 T5 PD engine? Absolutely not, the VW says 506.01 only and that's what goes in every 6 months.

As for the PD engine failure, I think that the percentage that failed would equal to the percentage those that used not approved oils.