Why you need to use 504/507 oils in FSI/TSI/TDI engines!

[kaanage]

This thread has been unstickied as part of cleaning up this MkVI section but I think it's generally useful so can the moderators move it to the Fuels/Lubricants section and sticky it there?

[AnDyStYLe]

Hi All,

Just a bit of a bump to this topic... I know it's fairly old, but it's very useful!

Now I've been trying to research the different brands of VW 504/507 approved oils and comparing them, and many (on this site and other forums) continue to reiterate that the important factor is the VW approval, don't worry too much about the brand.

However, it got me thinking about the different groups like 3, 4, 5 etc. which relate to whether an oil is 100% fully synthenic or otherwise (hydro cracked, synthesized)?

Coming from a Jap car (Nissan 180SX) we always liked to go for fully synthenic oils and this was usually the talk. But it seems that since jumping onboard VW, all the talk is about the approval and not the group.

I also noticed that the oils I was looking at for the VW doesn't have info on the group from what I could find.

Now I've got my misses MKV GTI almost due for a service, so I ducked into Autobarn this weekend with their 20% off, and got the 5L Shell Helix Ultra Extra 5w30 (VW504/507) for $60 discounted price, instead of the Liqui Moly Top Tec 4200 5w30 (VW504/507) at $76 discounted price. I went with Shell as this was what my VW service center was using, however they were using the Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 (VW502/505) previously. Since I now know better, I'll be getting them to use VW504/507. And for top ups I can stick with the same Shell brand.

Back on the brand Liqui Moly, I read somewhere that Liqui Moly isn't 100% fully synthenic? Though I can't find that source anymore though...

Anyhoo... Anyone care to weigh in on their thoughts on whether the group of the oil matters for our beloved VW's?

Cheers,

Andy

[Transporter]

IMO?
Yes, it does matter which group of base oil is the engine oil made

The Mobil1 ESP 5W30 (most likely not the one you buy on ebay) is fully synthetic made from group 4 base oil.
However, the Liqui Moly Top Tec 4200 is a very good oil and I like using it for its high TBN and HTHS, regardless if it was made from the group 3 or group 4 base oil.

The Mobil1 ESP 5W30 has a higher Flash point than other 504.00/507 oils, which means it could reduce the oil consumption. Also being fully synthetic, it should be the number 1 choice if money is not a problem, because it's probably the most expensive choice.

[AnDyStYLe]

^ Thanks for weighing in on this...

Got any thoughts and experiences with Shell Helix Ultra Extra 5w30? On the bottle it states fully synthetic but taking it with a grain of salt I'm assuming it's just marketing bs?

Cheers,

Andy

[entice]

The immediate difference I noted from switching from the factory oil to Amsoil ESP was how much cooler the engines were running

Golf R and Passat 125TDI

[AnDyStYLe]

Hi All,

*snip*

Back on the brand Liqui Moly, I read somewhere that Liqui Moly isn't 100% fully synthenic? Though I can't find that source anymore though...

*snip*

Edit: I found the source I was referring to Liqui-Moly Top Tec 4200 - TDIClub Forums

Cheers,

Andy

[brad]

I've used Helix Ultra Extra. Appeared no different than the Valvoline that the dealer was using. no hotter or cooler, fuel economy the same, still almost zero oil usage, etc

I'm sure that if you do your research you'll find better oils than what is in the 504.00 list (eg: some of the Amsoils) but for the average vehicle with a stage 1 tune it probably doesn't matter that much

[Transporter]

Even Penrite who claims that their Enviro+5W30 oil is "fully synthetic ", is just made mostly from the group3 base oil. Where some others like the Amsoil, Mobil1 ESP are made from the group4 or group5 base oil.

My finding is that many oil companies don't like to say, or they say to you "we don't disclose that information". Which, is really telling you that their oil is just made from the hydro cracked mineral base oil.

The bottom line is that, even term like "fully synthetic oil", means that the oil could still be a bit more refined mineral oil and not the true synthetic/man made oil.

[AnDyStYLe]

Thanks for the input guys!

Hate to keep banging on the brand Liqui Moly, but why all the fuss about this brand, given that it's not a "fully synthetic" base group IV/V oil?

I see many people jump on the bandwagon of Liqui Moly... Is it just personal preference, word of mouth, ignorance, made in Germany lol? I haven't been able to find any concrete data analysis to indicate why this brand is superior to others. Am I missing something?

I ask because I'm trying to find more info in prep for my first 15k km oil change in my Rocco, albeit that it's not for a while now, but I was about to pick up a bottle of the Liqui Moly Top Tec 4200 on the weekend due to a 20% off discount, but put it back down.

Why all the fuss about Liqui Moly? Even Motul from what I have also read.

Why not all the hype about Mobil1 ESP like Transporter has mentioned?

Or am I just opening up a whole can of worms?

Cheers,

Andy

[brad]

Mobil1 504.00 isn't readily available unless you pay through nose at dealers or buy large quantities from distributor (that's my take on it).

I've found a guy in Sydney who direct imports M1 & the price is competitive but the postage kills it if you can't pick-up.

Currently running M1 0w-40 502.00. Back to the mech after 7500km & he'll put in whatever he has, then after 7500km I'll try the M1 ESP 5w-30 I have waiting at home.

From my experience on forums there are 2 types of users - those that take a punt & do a bit of experimenting & those that are very conservative & want somebody else to take the whacks for them (probably 80% of users). So if somebody has a good experience with something (eg: LiquiMoly slowed the oil consumption on some cars & was also 504/507 & reasonably priced) they jump on the band wagon.

We had the same thing at a Subaru forum - Motul quietened the engine a bit. Everyone jumped in. For some of us it only quietened the engine for a few thousand km so we jumped out again.

Look at some of the really popular remaps on this forum - they are also the most expensive. People get them because other people have them & haven't had issues. I can think of sillier ways to make a choice.

[AnDyStYLe]

Thanks brad, very helpful mate!

Cheers,

Andy

[Transporter]

Be careful when you buy the Mobil1 ESP oil (probably any oil) on line for a good price. The chances are, that it is a rebadged oil form the US and therefor it's not made the same way as a legally bought Mobil1 ESP from the AU distributor. However, if you bought the oil on line, then perhaps keep your invoice and the empty bottle that should have the batch no. on it. Though, I don't like your chances, if you have to chase the ebay seller when something goes wrong with your engine and the engine oil is there to blame.

[Amalgam]

A genuine question about VW and oils, so please don't flame.

There seems to be very strong view that only VW approved oils are adequate for our cars and that anything less may be disastrous. There must be many less well off or remote places where the correct VW approved oils are not available or Joe from the local garage uses the incorrect oil. Surely VW must have factored this into their engineering otherwise we would be hearing about thousands of failed VW. I understand that a low SAPS oil is required to extend the life of the DPF but why can't a low SAPS oil approved for BMW, Mercedes Benz, Renault or Hyundai with long drain, 15,000 km service intervals provide similar protection for our VWs.

Just curious.

I service my Passat at the dealer which use the VW approved Castrol oil.

[joel0407]

I've found a guy in Sydney who direct imports M1 & the price is competitive but the postage kills it if you can't pick-up.

I think his name is Nick. I have his contact around here somewhere. I used to buy oil from him for my WRX. I'll be buying some redline shockproof from him for my Land Rover Discovery 2 very soon. He's prices are pretty good if you can pick it up from him. He used to work in Homebush Bay area in Sydney.

Happy Days

[joel0407]

A genuine question about VW and oils, so please don't flame.

There seems to be very strong view that only VW approved oils are adequate for our cars and that anything less may be disastrous. There must be many less well off or remote places where the correct VW approved oils are not available or Joe from the local garage uses the incorrect oil. Surely VW must have factored this into their engineering otherwise we would be hearing about thousands of failed VW. I understand that a low SAPS oil is required to extend the life of the DPF but why can't a low SAPS oil approved for BMW, Mercedes Benz, Renault or Hyundai with long drain, 15,000 km service intervals provide similar protection for our VWs.

Just curious.

I service my Passat at the dealer which use the VW approved Castrol oil.

I'm with you there in that question mate. I'm also interested is there better oils than what's recommended. If I own a 1970 model Toyota corolla, I don't have to use the best Synthetic oil but I can.

Happy Days