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**Corey_R** · 17-07-2010, 05:18 PM

Cheers. Although I'd be surprised if people intentionally ignore what the manufacturer recommends when it comes to oil. I mean, if you are cheap and don't use the recommended fuel, you could turn around and say "oh, I must've got a bad batch" or something. But if you use the wrong oil and your engine dies, VW service are going to see when they inspect the car, and I'm not sure you could then really use the "I got a bad batch" excuse.

**Tim** · 17-07-2010, 05:22 PM

Obviously specific oils are recommended for a reason and I agree that people should use them. The problem is that even using recommended oils, direct injection engines are suffering from massive intake buildups, so I dont think the above point is overly valid.

**Corey_R** · 17-07-2010, 08:53 PM

what's building up in the intakes? carbon?

**Transporter** · 17-07-2010, 09:32 PM

Sludge from EGR and PCV gases (engine crankcase fumes that re-enter into the intake manifold, fumes also contain oil particles).

**Diesel_vert** · 18-07-2010, 01:04 AM

Examples of a 1.6L FSI and a 2.0L TSI engine operated in Germany

The highly respected publication Auto Bild conduct 100,000 km long-term road tests of cars, and upon completion they perform a thorough tear down of the car, as shown below - quite impressive!

Dauertest Skoda Octavia Combi 1.6 FSI Ambiente — AUTO BILD 12/2008 — 01.04.2008

Captions translated by Google.

"100,000 km has survived our Octavia, great, because there is nothing to criticize. However, we have found some items that would under normal operation probably lead to repairs." (image 10 of 24)

"Traces of the exhaust gas recirculation: coal oil residues have been deposited on the intake ducts in the cylinder head..." (image 13 of 24)

"... and on the intake valves in the transition area of the valve stem and valve plate." (image 14 of 24)

"If a larger part of this debris is pulled in by the piston, this leads to scoring of the cylinder walls." (image 15 of 24)

Another example, this time a 2.0 TSI engine

VW Tiguan 2.0 TSI Sport & Style: Dauertest — AUTO BILD 14/2010 — 13.04.2010

No photos of valves this time though.

Obviously, using 504/507 oils won't stop deposit formation, but as shown by Lubrizol and Auto Bild, you can at least decrease the amount of deposit formation. To me it appears less severe compared to the photos that users are posting on other forums, considering the mileage (100,000 km) of these engines.

**Maverick** · 18-07-2010, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by Diesel_vert View Post

Here is an incomplete list of 504/507 oils:

And here is a complete one.

Volkswagen 504.00/507.00 Approved Oils

Volkswagen Oil Standards – lists of all approved oils – Skoda – Audi – Seat

**Diesel_vert** · 19-07-2010, 11:36 AM

SAPS

Acronym for Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus and Sulphur. Traditionally found in the make up of motor oil components such as anti-wear, antioxidants, detergents and base oils.

Limits are being placed on SAPS as they reduce the life and performance of three-way catalysts in petrol engines and diesel particulate filters, devices bought about by Euro 4 emission standards.

This is countered by using higher quality base oils (Group III or IV), alternative additive packs & more sophisticated formulations. The reduction of sulphur content in fuels is also important for these reduced oils to function properly, otherwise the excess acidity would overwhelm it and wear the oil out quicker.

Volkswagen AG terminology

502.00
Oils designed for fixed service intervals. Often combined with 505.00. Quality of oil can vary enormously. Available in many grades, typically: 5W-40, 0W-40, 5W-30 & 0W-30.

505.01
Oils designed for fixed service intervals. Initially developed for Pumpe Düse (PD) TDI diesel engines and often combined with 505.00. Newer version is a mid-SAPS formulation if it also meets ACEA C3, and is often combined with 502.00/505.00. Available in two grades: 5W-40 and 5W-30.

Longlife
Currently a term used by VAG to denote the concept of variable service intervals via onboard oil quality monitors and sensors.

Longlife II
Oils designed for variable service intervals of between 15,000 km/1 year to 30,000/2 years. Can go as high as 50,000 km/2 years in certain 3 and 4 cylinder TDI engines. Subject to 503.00/506.00/506.01 approval and is only available in one grade: 0W-30.

Longlife III
Oils with reduced SAPS designed for variable service intervals of between 15,000 km/1 year and 30,000 km/2 years. Supersedes all previous VAG oil standards, except for R5 and V10 TDI engines built prior to 06/2006. Subject to 504.00/507.00 approval and is only available in two grades: 5W-30 and 0W-30.

You can still use Longlife oils even if you run on fixed service intervals. In fact VAG recommends that if the car's driven in harsh operating conditions you should ask the dealer to switch over to fixed service intervals (Australian delivered cars are on the fixed service intervals).

Lubrizol terminology (see presentation in first post)

To clarify what they mean by OEM-approved Euro 3 oils on slide 19 & 20:

Euro 3 oils
Usually for engines prior to introduction of Euro 4 emission standards (2005 and prior). Typically characterised by ACEA A5/B5 high-SAPS, or ACEA A3/B4 high-SAPS, such as 502.00 oils (high-SAPS).

Euro 4 oils
Usually for engines which meet Euro 4 emissions standards (2005 and onwards). Typically characterised by ACEA C1/C4 low-SAPS, or ACEA C2/C3 mid-SAPS, such as 504.00/507.00 oils (mid-SAPS).

All that buildup on the inlet valve occurred in just 15,000 km from using an OEM-approved Euro 3 oil...

Maximum allowable sulphur content in automotive fuels

Euro 3
2000 - Gasoline = 150 ppm
2000 - Diesel = 350 ppm

Euro 4
2005 - Gasoline & diesel = 50 ppm

Euro 5
2009 - Gasoline & diesel = 10 ppm (available since 2005)

Australia
2005 - Unleaded (91 RON) and unleaded E10 (93~94 RON) = 150 ppm
2008 - Premium unleaded (95~98 RON) = 50 ppm
2009 - Diesel = 10 ppm

USA
2006 - Gasoline = 80 ppm (refinery average = 30 ppm)
2010 - Diesel = 15 ppm (at least 80% by 2006)

**Diesel_vert** · 19-07-2010, 11:41 AM

Back in 2005, Agip introduced their Longlife III 504/507 oil, of which they wrote (in somewhat broken English)...

Product information - Agip 7008 - PDF file (74 KB)

The special Longlife III quality of Agip 7008 can be clarified with the following 5 criteria:

1. At the performance the Longlife III quality can be equated with the Longlife II quality. Thus also the new quality for the prolonged oil-change intervals (WIV) is permitted for vehicles with the classification QG1 on the data carrier. The performance meets a level according to ACEA A3/B4.

2. The fuel saving also has to be proven in the engine test and has to show at least the same dimensions as Longlife II oils.

3. Mid-SAPS oils contain a special additive package with a reduced content of ash forming components. Fewer particles are formed at the combustion which ensures a long operating life of the DPF.

4. The SAE 5W-30 is necessary for diesel vehicles with diesel particle filter (DPF), since the soot in the DPF has to be burned at certain intervals.
This is made possible by an increased amount of fuel injection. However through this also a clear engine oil thinning can appear which could lead to a critical area of the engine lubrication at a SAE 0W-30. The 5W viscosity takes care of the necessary safety of the engine lubrication.

5. Highest requirements on the cleanliness of the inlet valves of the FSI engines (direct injecting gasoline engine).
Since there is no more contact of the additivated fuel with the inlet valve, the partially oil conditioned deposits cannot be reduced over its cleaning ability anymore.

So it's not just a matter using a low or mid-SAPS oil - how the oil is formulated also needs to be taken into consideration.

**Diesel_vert** · 19-07-2010, 11:48 AM

So why have we been told to use 502.00 high-SAPS oils in our FSI or TSI engines?

BTW, is this still the official recommendation for Australia? My theory is, until as recently as 2008 the sulphur content in all grades of Australian petrol could have been up to 150 ppm. (!) But even though 50 ppm petrol such as BP Ulimate (now I know why VW kept recommending it) was available well before the 2008 deadline, there was no legal obligation to do so until then (as if VW could force everyone to use only BP). Combine that with the rarity and price of 504/507 oils early on, perhaps 502 oils looked to be a safer recommendation until the situation improved. I bet VW of America (VWoA) faced a similar situation.

Now at least our premium unleaded is at a Euro 4 equivalency. I'm of the opinion that although the sulphur level is high enough not to warrant the use of variable service intervals, it's low enough such that mid-SAPS oils like 504/507 shouldn't have much trouble coping, which would negate the main concern of using reduced SAPS oils.

**Maverick** · 20-07-2010, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by Diesel_vert View Post

So why have we been told to use 502.00 high-SAPS oils in our FSI or TSI engines?

BTW, is this still the official recommendation for Australia?

Some dealers only use 504.00/507.00 oils. Highway Volkswagen in Brisbane have been using Castrol SLX Professional Longlife III 5W-30 for all their servicing for at least 2 years now.

Not sure about the Mk 6 but I assume it's 504.00/507.00 across the board now.

**brad** · 20-07-2010, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by entice View Post

perhaps not exactly a question for this thread, but, I am unsure as to why in the Aus manual there are (if my recollection serves me right) 2 options for VW approved oils in the MK6 GTi. Obviously, one is the 504/507 (long life?) and the other is, and i cannot specifically recall, a 501 or 505... One would assume, from the way the manual is written, that either meets specification, and that the non 504/507 is for NON long life.

Given that, what is "non" long life???

I ask as I have 2 containers of Mobil1 0W in the garage left over from the prior vehicle that was heavily driven (having been accused as a tightwad spending 90+ bucks for 5L on oil must be perplexing! Let alone having 2 spare containers of it). Now it meets one "standard" (ie the non-long life) but obviously not the 504 etc etc.

Let me make it clear, I am not intending to use it on the GTI, but am for my own knowledge, trying to ascertain why there are 2 different "options" and what the difference between the 2 is...and hopefully concurrently enlightening a few others that may be misled.

non long life is 15,000km/12 month changes. It is 502.00 spec for petrol engines.

long life is variable service intervals (504/507 spec). I'm not sure how that applies to VWs but on a Skoda 1.8TSI that means anwhere between (IIRC) ~18,000km to 36,000km depending on how the car is driven, number of cold starts, particulate content of oil (there are sensors in the engine) and other factors.

Australia doesn't do variable servicing, so in theory we don't need 504/507 and 502.00 is just fine for 15,000km/12month service intervals if you wish to simply maintain warranty. We do have many of the factors that are considered severe service, therefore, for all the faffing about & mystery everyone likes to attribute to VW oil specs, you may as well just run 504/507 & be done with it. edit: as even most Service Advisors/Managers don't understand the oil requirements.

If your GTI tends to use a bit of oil then feel free to top it up with the Mobil stuff. It won't be an issue.

Or if your in Sydney, I'll buy it off you for $45 if you really want to clear out your garage.

**prise** · 21-07-2010, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Diesel_vert View Post

I'm of the opinion that although the sulphur level is high enough not to warrant the use of variable service intervals, it's low enough such that mid-SAPS oils like 504/507 shouldn't have much trouble coping, which would negate the main concern of using reduced SAPS oils.

I'm interested in your understanding of the link between fuel sulphur levels and oil change intervals. One theory I've read is that the sulphur combines with water produced during combustion to create small amounts of sulphuric acid which builds up in the oil over time, particulalrly if the car is used for a lot of short trips. I also have read that the 507 oils contain higher levels of corrosion inhibitors.

**Diesel_vert** · 22-07-2010, 01:59 AM

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Engine oils have what's known as the TBN (Total Base Number). It is a measure of an oil's ability to deal with acid formation which could lead to corrosive wear. The higher the sulphur content in fuel, the higher the potential for acid formation, which leads to faster TBN depletion. It's one factor (amongst others) that ultimately limits the drain interval of an oil.

A brand new oil can have a TBN anywhere from 0.0 to 80.0 depending on application, though typically for ACEA Ax/Bx oils (higher SAPS) it's around 8.0 to 12.0, and for ACEA C3/C4 oils (reduced SAPS) around 6.0 to 8.0, but exceptions exist I'm sure. And though still the subject of debate, generally once TBN falls below 2.0 the oil needs to be changed, depending on the engine and/or oil. Hence the concern of using reduced SAPS oils in areas with high sulphur fuels.

One might think the obvious solution is to use oils with a high TBN reserve, but that has its own disadvantages. Aside from higher cost, it can lead to premature deposit formation (a possible cause of valve deposits in the Lubrizol presentation, perhaps?).

I think 50 ppm is a safe level for 504/507 to deal with, given that VAG introduced this oil spec sometime during 2004 - the same year when ACEA released the new reduced SAPS "Cx" category (25/10/2004) and when the European refineries had to meet the deadline for Euro 4 fuels (01/01/2005). Coincidence? Maybe not.

So I would guess that while Euro 4 fuels allows the use reduced SAPS oils (which reduces valve deposit formation), it's the Euro 5 fuels which allow the really extended drain intervals to be achieved whilst still using these reduced SAPS oils.

**Diesel_vert** · 22-07-2010, 02:08 AM

Regarding variable service intervals, in my opinion, I still think Australia is better off using fixed service intervals - even if we had Euro 5 fuels across the board and everyone used 504/507 oils - simply due to our operating environment.

By reading VAG's LongLife Servicing brochure and looking at list of conditions typical of each servicing regime...

LongLife Regime (variable - between 15,000 km/1 year and 30,000 km/2 years)
To obtain the most benefit from the LongLife service regime, the car should be generally driven in a style/condition of use listed below:
• Mainly longer distance journeys.
• Limited number of cold starts, engine is kept at operating temperature over a longer period of time.
• Daily mileage above approx. 25 miles (40 km).
• Constant speed.
• Vehicle used regularly.

Time/Distance Regime (fixed - 15,000 km/1 year)
If your car is driven in a style listed below, it may be more appropriate to opt for the Time and Distance regime:
• Extremely uneconomical driving style i.e. continual maximum acceleration i.e. ‘foot to floor’.
• Vehicle fully loaded.
• Mainly short journeys.
• Frequent cold starts.
• Frequent hill climbs.
• Frequent towing.
• City centre driving.

... when push comes to shove, I'd bet most of us would encounter more conditions listed in the latter rather than the former.

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