Why you need to use 504/507 oils in FSI/TSI/TDI engines!

[brad]

Regarding variable service intervals, in my opinion, I still think Australia is better off using fixed service intervals - even if we had Euro 5 fuels across the board and everyone used 504/507 oils - simply due to our operating environment.

By reading VAG's LongLife Servicing brochure and looking at list of conditions typical of each servicing regime...

LongLife Regime (variable - between 15,000 km/1 year and 30,000 km/2 years)
To obtain the most benefit from the LongLife service regime, the car should be generally driven in a style/condition of use listed below:
• Mainly longer distance journeys.
• Limited number of cold starts, engine is kept at operating temperature over a longer period of time.
• Daily mileage above approx. 25 miles (40 km).
• Constant speed.
• Vehicle used regularly.

I tick all the above boxes but I think I'd rather do 15,000km services with 502.00 than variable with 504.00. As it stands my dealer uses 504.00 anyway (as I don't think he understands how it all works), so not really an issue. What I dont understand is why you would do 7500km changes with 504.00 - but that's just me. Those that do, fill yer boots.

[Transporter]

For these who have VCDS and are able to change from fixed to variable interval.
If you want a better understanding why you need to use 504.00/507.00 oils in fixed service intervals or why we only have fixed service intervals in OZ using expensive oil.

Do the following: Change engine oil and the oil filter, change to variable servicing with VCDS, drive 2-3 months in the city stop start traffic only and you get the message "Service in 3,000 km" with in 4-5,000km.

Non of our cars will get to 15,000km/12 months and when I change the oil usually at 7,500km message is already there on the display.

Of course if you drive long distances it will be different and you may be OK for variable servicing.

To Brad: you forgot to say that you don't want to preserve the car for the second owner and that's one of the main reasons why you go for the cheaper oil. But many of us keep their cars for longer time than 3 years.

To others: Keep in mind that cheaper oils will leave sludge and varnish in your engine especially, if you go for 15,000km/12 months interval and drive under severe driving conditions and even if you would use the used UOA, no Used Oil Analysis will give you report on how much of it is deposited in your engine, until is too late.

Oil is still the cheapest component in the engine and extended oil changes are driven by environment concerns only.

So, IMO 15,000km/12months in OZ is spot on. What oil you use will affect the wear and tear that will be visible on the engine after you pass 100-150,000km.

[brad]

For these who have VCDS and are able to change from fixed to variable interval.
If you want a better understanding why you need to use 504.00/507.00 oils in fixed service intervals or why we only have fixed service intervals in OZ using expensive oil.

Do the following: Change engine oil and the oil filter, change to variable servicing with VCDS, drive 2-3 months in the city stop start traffic only and you get the message "Service in 3,000 km" with in 4-5,000km.

Non of our cars will get to 15,000km/12 months and when I change the oil usually at 7,500km message is already there on the display.

Of course if you drive long distances it will be different and you may be OK for variable servicing.

To Brad: you forgot to say that you don't want to preserve the car for the second owner and that's one of the main reasons why you go for the cheaper oil. But many of us keep their cars for longer time than 3 years.

To others: Keep in mind that cheaper oils will leave sludge and varnish in your engine especially, if you go for 15,000km/12 months interval and drive under severe driving conditions and even if you would use the used UOA, no Used Oil Analysis will give you report on how much of it is deposited in your engine, until is too late.

Oil is still the cheapest component in the engine and extended oil changes are driven by environment concerns only.

So, IMO 15,000km/12months in OZ is spot on. What oil you use will affect the wear and tear that will be visible on the engine after you pass 100-150,000km.

Well, I don't think Castrol Edge Sport 5w-30 is really a cheaper oil (even though it's hydro-cracked or whatever it is and not PAO) but that's a whole new can of worms isn't it

I just signed up for year 3 of the Octy & unless my transport requirements change (eg: not needing a biggish boot) and I decide to get a BMW 125 Coupe then I'll probably keep it for another 4 years.... which is when my daughter will get her licence & the car will be worth nothing, so she can have it then - so realistically I'll have the Octy until at least 200,000km.

[hooba]

What I dont understand is why you would do 7500km changes with 504.00 - but that's just me.

Does anybody know what type of oil VW uses from the factory 502.00 or 504.00?

[Transporter]

Common sense is telling me that for the diesel engines they use 507.00 right from the start since you cant drive on it for year without any ill effect on the DPF.
So most likely petrol engines get the same oil.

[Corey_R]

But they do use some type of special "mineral based 'break in' oil" rather than a synthentic oil.

[Transporter]

But they do use some type of special "mineral based 'break in' oil" rather than a synthentic oil.

That is very unlikely.

[Corey_R]

Oh, I thought it was already well known established fact around here. There are already many posts from many different forum members who have been advised this from their dealers service deptarments. In most cases, it's the reason they've been told not to do oil changes at 1,000km like many other manufacturers advise.

Edit:
Here are some posts mentioning the initial mineral based oil, from WhiteJames, WhiteJames#2, hmmm... now that I look at it, it seems to be mainly WhiteJames or people quoting WhiteJames...

[Maverick]

But they do use some type of special "mineral based 'break in' oil" rather than a synthentic oil.

I'm pretty sure it's a 504.00/507.00 oil they're using based on some posts on some oil analysis that have been performed on new cars.

Dealers seem to give various opinions as to the oil used and when to change. My dealer was happy to change at 6 months and made no mention of the car blowing up* like other dealers claim.

*or warranty hassles....

[Diesel_vert]

Relative performance of 502 vs. 504/507 (as interpreted by Lubrizol)

Link (Flash required) - Lubrizol Relative Performane Comparison Tool



Not only does 504/507 offer increased protection of after-treatment devices, it also protects the engine better due to stricter wear limits, not to mention the reduction of valve deposits - the core issue with FSI engines.

And with the cost of 504/507 oils these days (see first post for prices), why use anything else for these engines?

[prise]

For these who have VCDS and are able to change from fixed to variable interval.
If you want a better understanding why you need to use 504.00/507.00 oils in fixed service intervals or why we only have fixed service intervals in OZ using expensive oil.

Do the following: Change engine oil and the oil filter, change to variable servicing with VCDS, drive 2-3 months in the city stop start traffic only and you get the message "Service in 3,000 km" with in 4-5,000km.

Non of our cars will get to 15,000km/12 months and when I change the oil usually at 7,500km message is already there on the display.

Is that with a petrol or diesel and what sort of fuel economy are you getting?

According to VW's self study programme 224 material on extended oil change intervals the calculation for petrol engines (diesel is a bit different) is based on an algorithm that uses distance travelled, fuel used and oil temperature to calculate oil degradation. They do not monitor oil quality directly. I'm averaging 6.3 l/100km with my 118TSI and have a 42km trip each way so I would probably fall into the 'kind on oil' category. If its the same algorithm as used in the Euro spec cars then it will be based on their fuel sulphur levels and won't be valid for use in Australia.

When we get into the summer months I'll be interested to see how high the oil temperature gets. Having rented a couple of diesel Golfs in the UK my experience was that the diesels ran higher oil temperatures on the motorway than the petrol engines but were lower around town which I didn't understand.

[Diesel_vert]

"An oil’s kinematic viscosity is defined as its resistance to flow and shear" or simply, a measure of how thick or thin it is.

By using a viscosity calculator and values from the data sheets (assuming there are no typos), you can extrapolate these values for a given temperature. Obviously, these values only apply for brand-new, unused oils.

Data sheets:
Mobil 1 0W-40
Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30
Shell Helix Ultra Extra 5W-30

Units are given as mm²/s (SI) or cSt (imperial). The lower the value, the thinner the oil.



Below 14°C, Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 starts to become thicker (viscosity @ 14°C = 258 mm²/s) than Mobil 1 0W-40 (viscosity @ 14°C = 257 mm²/s).

But it's not until -17°C that Shell Helix Ultra Extra 5W-30 starts to become thicker (viscosity @ -17°C = 2018 mm²/s) than Mobil 1 0W-40 (viscosity @ -17°C = 2015 mm²/s)



So, as long as the outside temperature is above -17°C (yes, minus 17) when starting the engine, it's the Shell oil that will flow the quickest out of the three. And I've actually seen it on the shelves at either Repco or Supercheap, though I forget which one.

But best of all, it's a 504/507 oil.

[Greg Roles]

To my understanding 507 is specifically for the PD TDI's where it has to have both zero ash ( to prevent DPF blockage ) and high shear properties for the immense pressure the PD cam puts on the injectors. In a petrol car I'd figure they would indeed have a mineral based run in oil, which is optimal for piston ring seating, but in the diesel it just wasn't an option at run in time. I was pretty bummed!

[Coaster]

So I've read the whole thread, some great info in here, cheers.

My 118TSI has done 5,600km in its first 6 months. It doesn't get much use during the week, often spending the entire week in the carport. When it does get a run on weekends, most of the time it does 25km in a stint. 1000 of its km's were done on a long drive for a holiday. Stop-start traffic for my car is practically non-existent.

It seems as though my car wont need an oil change until the 12 month service interval, is this correct? And then the best oil to get for me is the 504/507 type? Or more specifically, the Castrol SLX Professional Powerflow Longlife III 5W-30? Thanks.

[brad]

It seems as though my car wont need an oil change until the 12 month service interval, is this correct? And then the best oil to get for me is the 504/507 type? Or more specifically, the Castrol SLX Professional Powerflow Longlife III 5W-30? Thanks.

15,000km or 12 months - whichever you hit first. The MFD should give you a warning about when the service is due (which you can also check manually - IIRC switch off ignition & press/hold the tripmeter reset button).
Yes, 504.00 is the best spec for your petrol engine.
The brand isn't overly important as long as it's certified to the VW spec. Earlier in this thread (or another?) there's a big spiel about PIAO oils & cracked oils - make your judgement from that. I've had OEM fill (Shell or Fuchs AFAIK), Castrol & Valvoline in my engine. There's a bottle of Shell waiting to go in next & I wouldn't mind trying Mobil1 but they all seem to be doing the job.