Golf R 3 door/5 door speculation/information thread

[benjmin]

Something I have learnt over the years Dave is that no matter what information they give you, it is always subject to change. So releasing it would be pointless.

Its probably a "furphy" but i was speaking to a dealer yesterday. He told me that the r20 was being released at the end of May. He also said that they were all going to a pre- release do in canberra in 2 weeks and that pricing would be known then.
I have no idea whether this is another bit of "tintilation" or not but i like many others in this forum await a positive announcment

[dave_r]

Its probably a "furphy" but i was speaking to a dealer yesterday. He told me that the r20 was being released at the end of May. He also said that they were all going to a pre- release do in canberra in 2 weeks and that pricing would be known then.

He's telling porkies.

[WhiteJames]

Swiss Review: GTI -v- Golf R

I drove the R and the GTI today, same twisty mountain road, same conditions. The GTI was a manual on 18", the R had the DSG box and was also on 18".
Starting with the GTI. It was white and had 18" Detroit alloys (not sure if they are called liked that in the US), and god it looks good. Not only does it looks good, it is also very fast. But it is also very comfortable, it is quiet and the built quality is excellent. On the twisty road it was very precise, the steering is sharp, the breaks are good. Although the 210hp are all going to the front wheels, the traction out of corners is very good, thanks to the XDS.

Back to the dealer and swap the GTI for the R. Inside it is almost the same as the GTI, minus the red parts. Turn the key and you instantly hear that it sounds like a GTI too. Okay it is a bit louder, but that's all. In the village it feels almost exactely like the GTI. Despite having mean LEDs in the front and a massive exhaust at the back it still feels civilized and comfortable. Why is it 10k CHF ($9500) more expensive then? Let's find out on the twisty road.
It has 60hp more than the GTI and you can feel that immediately. The GTI is fast, the R is VERY fast. Because of 4motion the R accelerates also faster out of corners. It is fantastic!

But there are also some disappointing points about it. You feel the 60hp more than the GTI, but you also feel the added weight, especially if you approach a corner and stand on the breaks. The R understeers quite a lot more than the GTI, you suddelny remember that the R is 127kg (280lbs) heavier than the GTI.

On the way back to the dealer the R turns itself back into a civilized Golf and I asked myself the question, if the R is worth the extra money.

I don't think so. Yes, the R is very very fast, but that's the only thing it can do better than the GTI. In my opinion the GTI is the better car. It is sharper, lighter, better on the breakes and it just feels more agile.
So you won't be surpirsed about my desicion. I pick up my GTI ... .

What goes up must come down: R -v- GTI.

The GTI –v- R debate is a bit like having two sons: One is good at football & golf; the other plays soccer & tennis. Being with one and not the other depends on what mood you’re in. Alternatively, extra-urban journeys such as traversing Macquarie Pass inland from Wollongong, NSW – The Golf R would be the pick going up the steep winding mountainous pass with the extra torque & AWD haldex grip. The GTI would be the pick of the two to drive down the curling descent, being a lead tipped arrow with greater adjustment in the rear end, lighter weight, greater agility & outright grip levels (power not so much an issue going down steep & curvy hills). What goes up must come down.

The above (vortex) review by a Swiss guy also highlights this issue. Coughing up more for something that may offer less driver satisfaction & more points off my license has to be given some thought (Ideally I’d like a slower MX-5 for joy of driving; for practical reasons it’s a non starter). It not like I’ll be using my Golf to chase stolen cars.

On a tangent:

I found that going from the comfort/sports strut type Eibach Prokit/Koni FSD suspension to the ‘sports’ KW V3 coilovers on my MKV GTI improved the performance greatly – both in a straight line & esp around corners.

The comfort/sports Eibach/Prokit strut kit was more fun as the MKV GTI moved around to a greater degree – pitching, rolling & yawing - creating the sensation of speed & fun, whilst at the same time being slower than the firmer sports biased KW V3 which were all about the business end of driving with a trade-off in ride quality (unless it’s wet – then softer means better).

The step up to the sports KW V3 coilover suspension, whilst enthralling to drive approaching the limit, had the MKV GTI perhaps a little too fast for urban roadways. The firmer chassis tune of the KW V3 didn’t start to come alive until after 7-8/10ths, by which time you’d be likely to be doing some big numbers, with that obvious trade off in ride comfort. The KW V3 had more linear rate front springs that were about 20% stiffer than the more progressive strut type Eibach ProKit Spring that was about 15% stiffer than OEM Stock GTI spring. As a point of reference: the Golf R has 20% stiffer springs than the MK6 GTI.

I get the impression that the Golf R may be similar my last MKV GTI ride on the second KW V3 suspension coilover kit. That is that you cannot tap into its utmost talent unless going beyond 8/10ths, in which case you’re doing some serious numbers and not having as much fun.

Just before selling the MKV GTI, I took a set backwards and ordered a set of comfort/sports HPA KW SHS coilovers to replace the KW V3. This was to re-introduce (1) A better & softer ride, esp around town; (2) Slightly higher ride height; (3) More fun on the pubic roadways within set limitations. Point is that the GTI was going to be tuned for a softer ride with greater adjustability & forgiveness, creating a greater feeling of fun at the expense of being an outright speed machine.

Weight:

Based on experience, I put a strong weight on weight itself ... or more to the point, the absence of weight. Weight is good for grand touring soaking up the bumps with greater poise (so is a longer wheelbase ... think ‘coach or bus or statesman deville’); but not so good for the reasons mentioned by the Swiss guy’s post on vortex – agility, responsiveness, braking, fuel consumption, adjustability, fun factor.

In respect to the Swiss guy indicating that the Golf R understeered moreso than the GTI, I think he may of failed to follow the cardinal rule that with FWD or many a vehicle with considerable weight up front, driving style requires slow in / fast out in order to give the vehicle's front tyres coping with the heavy front mass time to change direction. In this case, the Golf R, being heavier, could not carry the same speed as the GTI into the corner due to the extra kilos. Going out of the corner is a different matter re: Golf R with AWD. Golf R does have an advantage in that the extra heft is located low in the chassis and to the rear for greater overall balance.


Cheers
WJ

[Corey_R]

Hey Guys. I've been checking the UK Volkswagen site for the last few months and they've FINALLY separated out the Golf GTI and GTD brochures, and put up a Golf R Brochure!!!!

Anyway, the usual disclaimers apply. These are UK specifications and not necessarily related to what we'll receive in Australia.
Having said that, there are a few interesting things.

The weight of the car is listed as 1521kg for the 3 door manual. This includes a 90% fuel load, a 68kg driver, and 7kg of luggage, as per EU directive 95/48. The DSG gearbox adds 20kg. The 5 door model adds 30kg to the weight! By comparison, the Golf GTI is 1318kg. Considering it's sightly smaller tank, this puts it at about 200kg less. This weight difference is surprising considering that is what the weight difference was between the MKV GTI and R32 - yet the R obviously does not have a crappy old heavy 3.2L V6 up front The 200kg difference also doesn't match the differences in NZ and Germany...

The other thing to note is that the optional 19" Talladega wheels, whether in black or in silver, also include black headlight surrounds. Now from the pictures (more like paintings, lol), the different appears to be only in the silver vs black 'cradles' that the Xenons 'sit on'.

They've also got a few extra colours. Tornado Red, Shadow Blue, and Blue Graphite.
Anyways. Have a look through and see what you guys think (and what else you notice).

[team_v]

Used the New Golf R in forza 3 tonight.
The blue really suits it, as does white.
It comes with black headlight surrounds and is 3 door.


And you can transplant the Touareg V10TT into it

[dave_r]

Hey Guys. I've been checking the UK Volkswagen site for the last few months and they've FINALLY separated out the Golf GTI and GTD brochures, and put up a Golf R Brochure!!!!

It must have been posted before cos I already had it saved on my PC....no idea when LOL. That weight is rather high for a small car and there aren't any photos of these black headlight surrounds?

I was going to stick with 18's and when the time came if the dealer had another car they could "borrow" the 19's from and do a good deal I'd take the swap hehe. Might not be possible if they come factory option with the surround bit?

[WhiteJames]

Weight dispute now settled: + 191 kgs

More black cradle headlight surrounds than you can poke a stick at in this thread:

VWvortex Forums: Golf R Pics only!

Notice the difference between 18" wheels with Silver GTI style headlight cradles & lack of privacy glass -v- 19" wheels with blacked privacy glass & black cradles. In NZ - privacy glass, blacked out headlight cradles & 19" wheels come as one grouped option.


5 door GTI DSG = 1380kgs (Euro regs).
5 door Golf R DSG = 1571 kgs (Euro regs).

Add heavier again 19" Taledaga wheel option on the Golf R if you're vain (Not sure how much the consumate DCC would add to weight; probably a must for Sydney roadways).

Explains why Golf R is reported to be heavy on the juice when leaned on -v- the frugal GTI.
Suspicious why Volkswagen released the Golf R in the snow, rather than in a dry climate such as southern Europe (Spain).
So far, no reports I've read have managed to clock the same times as Volkswagen for acceleration. Last German review had MANUAL at 6.0 sec to 100kph (should be 5.7 sec for manual gearbox). Having a detuned DSG Golf R Aus version rated at 5.7 sec 0-100kph - real life may have that back to 6.0sec to 100kph; not that far ahead of the GTI for performance (perhaps 0.5sec to 1.0sec).
AWD & bigger brakes aside, still not convinced to pay another 10K over the Mark 6 GTI. Well not until I drive it or read some thorough local reviews with standard of ride included.

Cheers
WJ

[dave_r]

More black cradle headlight surrounds than you can poke a stick at in this thread:

Good thread, but call me stupid. I don't see a difference? Should I goto bed and recheck in the morning lol?

Add heavier again 19" Taledaga wheel option on the Golf R if you're vain

Doubt they'd add much more weight though, maybe a kg per wheel at best?

So far, no reports I've read have managed to clock the same times as Volkswagen for acceleration.

Now this is the only part I don't like. I don't care about fuel consumption, my current car is lucky to do 16L/100 using 98 but if they're grossly over stating the perfmrance then I will care! Last figures I saw for AU were rated 0-100 of 5.7 for the DSG 5dr. Got any of the reviews handy saying they've had issues matching the quoted figures?

[WhiteJames]

This German Auto Bild review of 5 hatches sheds a bit of light. Bear in mind that testing regimes often varies with all sorts of variables. This article is good in that it compares Golf R -v- Audi S3 Sportback, which a are siblings.

YouTube - Volkswagen Golf R Vs Its Competition by AutoBild (2/2)

YouTube - Volkswagen Golf R Vs Its Competition by AutoBild (1/2)

There may be other actual times posted in reviews throughout this thread.

I was concerned after reading United Kingdom's CAR Magazine comparison between Golf R -v- Renault Megane -v- Ford Focus RS. This magazine is in newsagents atm, so best to pick up a copy. No times stated, but journos are adamant that Renault was the swifter drive (Megane Cup rate 6.1 secs to 100kph), with lower gearing & lighter weight.

Having done a few aftermarket suspension reviews involving the earlier MKV Golf R32: At first I excited & wanted an R32. After several reviews & drives, I came to realise that I preferred the GTI more of the time, with distinct advantages to the Golf R32. Weight of R32 was always apparent, even in in-town driving. This I didn't like.

I was hoping the Golf R would be around 90kg heavier than the GTI at best & 130kg at worst. 191kg is a lot of mass to chuck around re: Golf R. r_forum.co.uk members reviews are stating their is no perceptable feel in saving in weight of the Golf R, other than a lighter front end creating an improved chassis balance. Sure, there're are heavier & faster cars around (HSV/FPV), but not interested in heavy mass vehicles. Don't get me wrong, I like the Golf R, but thinking the Golf GTI is better value & likley more fun drive. I don't plan on improving the power with aftermarket modifications which makes less of a need for the neccessity AWD in the Golf, although it'd be nice to have, but not at the expense of 191kg. XDS in the GTI has bridged the gap to a degree. The way XDS -v- AWD go about their business is very different. XDS maintains slight-mild understeer while pulling the inside front into line. The AWD R32 (Golf R) shifts the drive rearwards instead of pulling into a corner bobcat style like XDS. In this respect, you'd have to drive both to appreciate the difference. I don't pay for fuel at work and can use as much as I require; don't see any point in wasting it. Looking for a good balance of power & economy. Read the CAR ADVICE review on the other thread re: GTI -v- WRX. WRX is faster but check out the fuel economy figures. GTI murders the WRX.

Cheers
WJ

[Corey_R]

Good thread, but call me stupid. I don't see a difference? Should I goto bed and recheck in the morning lol?

Calling it the 'headlight surrounds' is stretching the truth. But the first two pictures show the difference. I'll put them here:

This one has the standard headlight surround. Note the chrome cover over the top of the projector and that curves around extends out underneath in front of the projector.
The actual 'headlight surrounds' are still black.


This one above has the 'black headlight surrounds' and in this even the actual pieces that 'hold' the projectors are black.

[Corey_R]

300th post with justifying the GTI vs the R

/sarcasm

But seriously dude, this isn't the GTI vs R thread. It's the R information thread.
It should be obvious to EVERYONE that a AWD car will be heavier and drive different to a FWD (or RWD car for that matter) car. It should also be obvious that they require a different driving style to maximise performance, and that since the AWD car is heavier, and is splitting power between more wheels, will use more fuel.

As for the GTI feeling faster. I'm sure a FWD or RWD WRX would also feel faster than the regular AWD version, even if it isn't. The fact that the car struggles to achieve it's grip etc on low speed acceleration duties will cause that.

Anyway. I don't think there is any need to speculate over VW fudging the figures on the R. The S3 is just as heavy and just as powerful (or powerless here) and yet still achieves its performance figures. It's also been out long enough for people to have done that convo to death.

[oshuyi]

wow almost 200kg heavier than the gti, that's a very significant amount of weight. i'll probably cancel my order for it now.

as for the claim 0-100km/h in 5.7s, i very much doubt it can achieve the time, esp. with our lower specs.
my evo 9 weights less than the r20 and it can do 5.7s but it has more power and torque.

[Corey_R]

oshuyi, read my above comments....

Also, to clarify, the acceleration times for Australia are already known:
5.7 DSG
5.9 Manual

Note that these have already been adjusted for the fact that we have the same engine spec as the S3 in Australia. These figures are accurate, as the S3 has been out for like 4 years now....

[Sharkie]

Note that these have already been adjusted for the fact that we have the same engine spec as the S3 in Australia. These figures are accurate, as the S3 has been out for like 4 years now....

Actually, no, ...... the S3 has quietly been upped to 195kw/350NM about 2 years ago .....

[Guest1306]

Re: Golf R 3 door/5 door speculation/information thread

wow almost 200kg heavier than the gti, that's a very significant amount of weight. i'll probably cancel my order for it now.

Try something like a Ford Fiesta or a Mazda 2, both would be significantly better as they are lighter.