Meet my Polo!

[Tim]

you can see just by looking at the designs why the forge unit wouldnt flow as well. Doesnt look like they have put a lot of thought into it beyond getting as much cooling as possible.

[Guy_H]

What it boils down to is power loss, which ever the way you look at it, due to inefficient intercooling & poor flow. As I mentioned earlier, the tests were on behalf of some customers that had the exact same issue.

Going back several years (years before the Forge unit was on the market), we need an intercooler for our Tarmac Rally Polo 9N, we approached Richard at ARE ARE Cooling (Aluminium Radiators & Engineering P/L) - their reputation is second to none. Anyway, we had 2 choices, build a completely new core or modify the existing APR 1.8T specific intercooler to suit. Richard carried out flow testing & analysis on the APR core & it was deemed "More than adequate" - we also have APR's pressure drop figures through the core (air supply to the radiator) so there was zero danger of overheating. Anyway, it was expensive, but they worked.

Don't take my word for it, feel free to have a stock vs any after-market version rested by any intercooler manufacturer with a flow bench - the results speak for themselves, as does the data logs & the dyno wheel readings & PSI drop.

[gjuu]

and another question is...
Does this mean that you think better flow but higher intake temperatures (std vs forge) are more desirable than cooler intake temps and less airflow.
(were the tests done after a good fang around the block to get that heat soak happening?)

[noone]

The flow charts are the most important, as you can see the stock one flows more than the unit in question, and the APR one flows, well you can see how it flows.

So what does it mean? What is the unit of measurement? I googled it, but could not find other flow testing or comparisons with PSI / Bar.

I guess what I need to understand is what makes this example accurate for the Polo vs preferable for your product? If you tested at 25 Psi, then it's not really relevant as we don't make that much boost.

[Guy_H]

The flow charts are the most important, as you can see the stock one flows more than the unit in question, and the APR one flows, well you can see how it flows.

The dyno plots are three different cars, but the ones to look at are the blue & the red lines.

These are two K04 cars, both running downpipes (one with a catback), both running standard airboxes & the exact same software.

The big difference is one runs the APR intercooler (BLUE) It could make 24PSI & hold a good boost curve.

The Red line has the Forge intercooler & could only make 22psi, but the curve dropped off hard as you can see.

The green line is a well worked K03 car that goes well.

We have data logging from both the Blue car & the red car & it shows exactly the same, with the Forge intercooler on board, it can not make its requested boost, nor can it maintain a solid curve through a power run.

James is trying to find the dyno's of the red car once the intercooler was swapped and how now the boost curve is the same as the red car.

[noone]

Thanks.

So what do the numers mean and what specific info is there on the vehicles on the Dyno?

I don't doubt the data, just need to be able to understand it...

[DeanB]

Here are the images that Guy wanted hosted ... I'll leave it in his capable hands to explain what they all mean

[Buller_Scott]

my fellow watercoolers- some people would have you believe that things are SO STRINGENT!!!

the truth is... facebook.... what?

oh yeah... i have a dealer login... i plug the car in... i download the file......

im presuming that this post will get deleted... but it's that easy... there's no ****ing genius over here, sorting out special fuel/air maps.... all the ****ers over here simply plug into the dealer network and download the file with the "customers" car plugged in.

lol. so much for "special workmanship". certain people are full of isht. oh... and tunes only cost THEM $250 A PIECE, too.

oops. sorry. for being honest... just trying to do the right thing by VeeDubbers...

[DeanB]

If you want the stuff hosted Guy pm me the stuff, I've no problem hosting it and putting it up here for you.

[Guy_H]

If you could post up the flow chart please with the details of the three intercooler comparison (convert from PDF to jpeg?).

Our original intercooler was done by ARE, and after testing several cores, we went with the APR for several reasons. We had to downsize the entry pipe & change the exit pipe size as well, but you can see from the floe charts & the fact that the air spends (at 7200rpm's) .037 seconds in the core!

ARE's information is here:

ARE Cooling (Aluminium Radiators & Engineering P/L) Lag

If anyone wants to put a Forge intercooler up for testing, please let me know, I will happily get Richard at ARE to test. He is not as subtle about poor design.

[xtturbo]

Jarrad, you have 3 emails on the way!

Ok,

I've done a brief analysis, and if we accept Guy's flowbench testing of the units (which I am happy to), the situation is as follows:

1. The Forge unit flows 310cfm. Thats about enough to make 170kw (at the flywheel), but no more.

2. Therefore, the Forge unit should not be used on cars that go past chipped K03s spec.

I'll post something more convincing later,

Cheers Guy.

[Guy_H]

Jarrad, you have 3 emails on the way!

[xtturbo]

Who can host pictures & PDF's for me?

I will. Send me an email at dazein @ me .com with the files

Cheers,

Jarrad

[Guy_H]

xtturbo,

Please don't take offence, and if you have one, that's your choice. The FACT is that more than 7 people have complained of boost & power drops after installing the FORGE intercooler. We have a couple of hundred Polo customers, so after results at a QLD dyno day in 2009, we (with the help of a customer that experienced boost & power drops) had the intercoolers tested on a dyno, data logged & Flow Bench tested.

In all seriousness, the intercooler manufacturer who owns the flow bench we used for testing honestly thought the FORGE unit was a joke, and stated categorically, that you would be better off with a stock intercooler & heat soak than having such a flow restriction in the system.

We forwarded this information to Plautos as he had a similar problem, so we have seen it on K03, K04 & GT turbo Polo's, so it's not an isolated one off.

I really don't care what you bolt on to your own car, but I challenge you to have a stock intercooler tested side by side with the FORGE unit & ask a professional opinion (an intercooler fabricator), based on the flow results, on what they would rather bolt on a vehicle. That is simply what we did.

If you think this is "competitor slanging", you are incorrect, this simply is a product that we firmly believe (and have the data to back it up) that you are better off not having it on your car.

Can you please supply data that shows otherwise. Certainly I know one owner who asked Forge about their testing data & design criteria, and at last contact, there was no response.

Note, we have never tested any other Polo specific intercoolers, not the Seat diesel one, or custom ones, so I have no data or seen any evidence on how they work.

[Guy_H]

Who can host pictures & PDF's for me?