MK6 Manual vs DSG Discussion Thread

[Corey_R]

Ok guys, read this carefully before posting.

Too many threads go off topic with "Manual vs DSG" discussion. It then leads to either posts being deleted or infractions being issued.
When this happened again in the Motor Magazine - BFYB 2010 thread, The Mod Team decided to instead split the posts off into this thread. All posts up to #16 come directly from that thread.

Any "Manual vs DSG" discussion should be discussed in here. Any of "Manual vs DSG" discussion which start in other threads will be moved to here.

Be nice to each other and respect each others opinions. Any personal insults and carrying on as experienced in previous "Manual vs DSG" threads will result in infractions being issued. It may also result in the thread being temporarily closed whilst everyone has a chance to calm down!

Lets see if this works this time.

[Sharkie]

Thats a good point, and having just spent 2 days with the motor journalists - I'm contemplating switching both our manual cars for DSG versions so I can have "repeatable" 0-100 times.

1.5 seconds difference on different launches for the manual - thats going to be the normal room for error.

Yes, we know that motoring journalists are particulary inept at launching manual cars well .... you'd think that after years of doing it, they'd be better at it ....

The DSGs will deliver repeated similar runs whilst the manual will always be inconsistent. That does not say a well driven manual R won't do a 5.5s 0-100, what is does say is that it may do it 10% of the time where the DSG with launch control will do it 99% of the time and a DSG without launch control 0% of the time ....

Also, in real day to day driving the manual will be quicker than the DSG at least 60% of the time due to the fact that the pull-off lag is still there without launch control and you can't go around using launch control every time you pull-off.

The DSG will fail if you do and I bet you VW won't fix it under warranty ....

Stick with your manuals, Guy and borrow a DSG when you need to do "performance figures", so you can give it back to its owner and not worry about that impending DSG failure ....

Even Nissan has removed launch control from the GTR for that very reason ....

[Maverick]

Also, in real day to day driving the manual will be quicker than the DSG at least 60% of the time due to the fact that the pull-off lag is still there without launch control and you can't go around using launch control every time you pull-off.

There doesn't have to be any lag with the DSG, it's easy to remove the lag by engaging the clutches just before you take off just like you would in a manual.

Stick with your manuals, Guy and borrow a DSG when you need to do "performance figures", so you can give it back to its owner and not worry about that impending DSG failure ....

You mean the impending DSG failure that pretty much no-one has had nor had to pay for?

[Sharkie]

There doesn't have to be any lag with the DSG, it's easy to remove the lag by engaging the clutches just before you take off just like you would in a manual.

Happy to demonstrate to you Maverick, how at least 6 times out of 10 goes I'll beat you in a manual GTI compared to a DSG GTI if the DSG does not use launch control .... any time and place ...

Here's a quote from a different thread from a DSG driver that sums it up really well .....

"Hesitation from dead stopped has not been eliminated. It still won't engage the clutch until there are enough revs to give take-off power and I don't think that has been fully optimised. Much better than earlier DSGs but still there. As has been said a manual responding to an intelligent person who begins to lift his left foot as his brain tells the right foot when to go down will beat a computer that can only respond to throttle request."

You mean the impending DSG failure that pretty much no-one has had nor had to pay for?

I can guarantee you that if VW can trace the DSG failure back to excessive use (ie abuse) of launch control, they will void your warranty on it .... it even says so in your warranty terms and conditions .... it is a legal document, how about you go away and read it and then come to me for interpretation if you still don't get it ...

[clubbie]

Yes, we know that motoring journalists are particulary inept at launching manual cars well .... you'd think that after years of doing it, they'd be better at it ....

Maybe you could have done better on a gravel based airstrip champ? No didn't think so.

Not defending the journo's just letting you know that the numbers for all cars were less than "ideal" and far from a prepped tarmac.

[Sharkie]

Maybe you could have done better on a gravel based airstrip champ? No didn't think so.

I wasn't making any comments about the times on this day, maybe read what I said a bit better champ, my comment was that in general, the journos are particulary bad at getting consistent numbers out of manual cars and without having the same problems in automatic cars .... said nothing about comparative times ....

[Maverick]

Happy to demonstrate to you Maverick, how at least 6 times out of 10 goes I'll beat you in a manual GTI compared to a DSG GTI if the DSG does not use launch control .... any time and place ...

Contrary to popular belief the majority of DSG owners rarely use launch control and do just fine by backing off the brake pedal until the clutches start to engage with a few extra revs.

Here's a quote from a different thread from a DSG driver that sums it up really well .....

"Hesitation from dead stopped has not been eliminated. It still won't engage the clutch until there are enough revs to give take-off power and I don't think that has been fully optimised. Much better than earlier DSGs but still there. As has been said a manual responding to an intelligent person who begins to lift his left foot as his brain tells the right foot when to go down will beat a computer that can only respond to throttle request."

That's the owner of a DIESEL SUV with a 7 speed DSG with a AWD drivetrain.. hardly comparable to the GTI. Link to the post for those interested in reading that quote in the context that it was written with the required information.

I can guarantee you that if VW can trace the DSG failure back to excessive use (ie abuse) of launch control, they will void your warranty on it .... it even says so in your warranty terms and conditions .... it is a legal document, how about you go away and read it and then come to me for interpretation if you still don't get it ...

Just like they would deny your clutch claim for abuse.... For a start I made no mention of using launch control and just pointed out prior that launch control is not needed to get a fast takeoff and your example of the GTR is pointless as they're completely different cars and the GTR owner has to read and sign a document that clearly states that using launch control will invalidate your warranty. The GTI doesn't keep track of launch control launches and these are much less harsh on the GTI's drivetrain due to the traction issues.

And unlike the GTR example where there are plenty of people who have had their warranty claims denied there are pretty well ZERO for the DSG gearbox having warranty claims denied for using launch control or even for out of warranty failures.

[Sharkie]

Contrary to popular belief the majority of DSG owners rarely use launch control and do just fine by backing off the brake pedal until the clutches start to engage with a few extra revs.

Agreed, however, I can in 1 fluid motion be in 1st gear and smoothly let out the clutch whilst balancing it with the throttle to provide a smooth and very quick launch. Sure, once moving the DSG changes gears brilliantly, but its at least 10m behind and will not catch up, even over 400m ....

That's the owner of a DIESEL SUV with a 7 speed DSG with a AWD drivetrain.. hardly comparable to the GTI.

Wrong, this is in fact the next generation of DSG boxes and supposedly better than that of the GTI .... it does not matter which car its in .... the technology is the same .... that same 7spd box will eventually make its way throughout the VW ranges where better torque capability is required .... currently Tiguans and T5GP's already have it ....

Just like they would deny your clutch claim for abuse....

Agreed, however a clutch is much cheaper to replace than a DSG box ....

The GTI doesn't keep track of launch control launches and these are much less harsh on the GTI's drivetrain due to the traction issues.

I know for a fact that somewhere in the ECU it keeps track of every time the ABS and ESP is engaged in a VW .... it is logical to conclude that it would do the same for the launch control. In this day and age with litigation going the way it is, they would be incredibly stupid not to ....

And unlike the GTR example where there are plenty of people who have had their warranty claims denied there are pretty well ZERO for the DSG gearbox having warranty claims denied for using launch control or even for out of warranty failures.

I don't believe you can make that statement unless you happen to work for VW itself and has access to the records as to exactly how many claims they have approved or not due to launch control. For all we know it is nothing or maybe a few. Trolling through forums certainly won't bring you those stats ....

You cant just make up a statement like that .... LOL

[Corey_R]

At the same time though Sharkie, you can't make the claims that you are making (re VW's reactions to situations) unless you're in the same situation...

[Sharkie]

At the same time though Sharkie, you can't make the claims that you are making (re VW's reactions to situations) unless you're in the same situation...

Agreed, I have absolutely no knowledge of how many warranty claims have been approved or denied. I do know that VW will certainly be entitled to deny any claim related to launch control abuse, whether they do so or not is up to them.

I do know, however, for a fact in 2 cases (1 with VW and 1 with BMW) where insurance related claims was denied of approved based purely on evidence provided by VW (in the case of ESP & ABS) and BMW (in the case of ABS), obtained from the onboard computers after the accidents in question to the insurance company ..... this evidence showed very clearly to what extent the ESP and ABS was engaged in the time immediately prior to the accidents .....

For instance, they could show exactly how fast the car was travelling and how hard it braked, how many times it braked and how many times the ESP and ABS kicked in.

And yes, whilst I do not know if they record any data with regards to launch control, it would logical to assume that they would at least record something .....

[Maverick]

Agreed, however, I can in 1 fluid motion be in 1st gear and smoothly let out the clutch whilst balancing it with the throttle to provide a smooth and very quick launch. Sure, once moving the DSG changes gears brilliantly, but its at least 10m behind and will not catch up, even over 400m ....

And you can stuff up a gear change so you can't perform that consistently.

Wrong, this is in fact the next generation of DSG boxes and supposedly better than that of the GTI .... it does not matter which car its in .... the technology is the same .... that same 7spd box will eventually make its way throughout the VW ranges where better torque capability is required .... currently Tiguans and T5GP's already have it ....

It's a different gearbox with a different layout with different software with different clutches with a different engine (slow revving diesel) in a different chassis which has a different purpose (ferrying children to school and parking in shopping centres).

Agreed, however a clutch is much cheaper to replace than a DSG box ....

Why would you have to replace the whole DSG box if the clutches are worn out? This would be akin to changing the manual gearbox because the clutch is warn!

I know for a fact that somewhere in the ECU it keeps track of every time the ABS and ESP is engaged in a VW .... it is logical to conclude that it would do the same for the launch control. In this day and age with litigation going the way it is, they would be incredibly stupid not to ....

Every time? How much memory do you think the ECU has? Why would it store that launch control was used?

I don't believe you can make that statement unless you happen to work for VW itself and has access to the records as to exactly how many claims they have approved or not due to launch control. For all we know it is nothing or maybe a few. Trolling through forums certainly won't bring you those stats ....

You cant just make up a statement like that .... LOL

There is nothing to support your claim about VW refusing warranty, there are no posts on any forum about anyone having their claim denied for using launch control (unlike the GTR), there are no posts about anyone having to pay to replace a DSG and no statements from Volkswagen to say that using launch control will invalidate your warranty. So I as I said there are "pretty well ZERO" people that have had warranty claims denied because there is a fair chance that anyone who had warranty denied would either be an enthusiast or would go looking for assistance online if that occurred. And there are no technical bulletins about DSG failures and how to treat them.

[dave_r]

And yes, whilst I do not know if they record any data with regards to launch control, it would logical to assume that they would at least record something .....

LOL, hope it can't record when I fart and thus invalidate my leather from future defects.

This thread really went off the rails.

[Maverick]

Agreed, I have absolutely no knowledge of how many warranty claims have been approved or denied. I do know that VW will certainly be entitled to deny any claim related to launch control abuse, whether they do so or not is up to them.

Really?

You GUARANTEED before that VW WOULD void your warranty for using launch control.

I can guarantee you that if VW can trace the DSG failure back to excessive use (ie abuse) of launch control, they will void your warranty on it .... it even says so in your warranty terms and conditions .... it is a legal document, how about you go away and read it and then come to me for interpretation if you still don't get it ...

For instance, they could show exactly how fast the car was travelling and how hard it braked, how many times it braked and how many times the ESP and ABS kicked in.

The data can't show exactly how fast the car was travelling, nor it's direction of travel, nor can it show detailed information and ESP And ABS data is useless unless you take all the data. Take a look at how much storage you would need to store a useful amount of information and at what frequency you would need to store that. And take into account that the ECU has a limited number of read cycles.

And yes, whilst I do not know if they record any data with regards to launch control, it would logical to assume that they would at least record something .....

It wouldn't be logical at all, the NHTSA has a working group for EDR's and whilst it hasn't been finalised there is nothing in the data recording requirements for launch control data to be stored. EDR's can be remote wiped and plenty of devices will pop up on the market over the next few years to enable you to remote wipe in the event of an accident.

[gareth_oau]

that would be an interesting legal case.

how many people were sat down and asked to read and understand the detailed warranty before they bought the car? an implied warranty is not enforceable unless it is explicitly raised prior to the contract being concluded

[Sharkie]

It certainly never was my intention to get it off topic, the gist of my original posts was merely around the inability of motoring journalists to be consistent when testing manual cars. As usual you then get all the people who feel they have to defend their purchasing decision or mindset to step in and send the topic off on a tangent ..... very little open mindedness on this forum. I realise it’s a VW forum (and I’m going for #8 VW now and #1 Porsche in Feb), but I’m a car enthusiast 1st and not blinded to a car or a brand’s less good points ….

Motor magazine has a history of being inconsistent when testing manual cars. Like any normal human being they get better at it with more familiarity with the said car. Whilst this is a normal trait for any person, it can be expected of motoring journalists to be good enough at what they do that they do not need a lengthy familiarisation period.

Take their recent long term GTI manual for instance as an example. Near the end of 6 months with it they managed to do 6.87s 0-100km/h and claimed it was well run in ….. Whilst a well run in car is quicker than a newbie it is the increased familiarity that comes over time that makes up the largest portion of the improvement.

So, in any test or comparison test, a manual car will always be disadvantaged, not only against the DSGs and automatics out there, but even against its manual peers who have had the time with the journos to breed the familiarity required to get decent results.

So any tuner IMO would be smart to send a clutch pedalless car with launch control to performance testing by the journos, as they then would be able to achieve consistent times …. And be able to report those times in fairness to the product to the public.

For day to day driving it is another story however ….