Golf R -v- Golf GTI

[Corey_R]

To add to the R vs GTI debate, as can be seen I chose a GTI for a few reasons and none of them had anything to do with relative performance. Top of the list were availability (the R wasn't out in time for my preferred purchase timing), price (likely to have been too much of a budget stretch but the decision was made prior to the final pricing of the R was announced), boot space (as I do need the full amount of space occassionally) and lastly I wasn't a fan of the black plastic on the steering wheel. The last one was never going to be a deal breaker.

I also wasn't a fan of the "black plastic" until I actually got it.
But all the reasons you list are valid.
Those were all on my list, in addition to the "AWD" in general. Still after 7 months of owning the Golf R the AWD is the biggest "love hate" part of the car for me. It's awesome for the traffic-lights GP, but beyond that, I just still don't see its benefit. Not that I feel FWD is better. RWD is though

[SilvrFoxX]

... is the new issue of Motor out already? Thought it was out wednesday

I read somewhere on the Applestore site you can get 12 months subscription of Motor for the iPad for $23.. I would have to hunt it down but seemed like a bargain

[adzy]

all good mate.. I may just go check the store

[MkVIGTI]

I also wasn't a fan of the "black plastic" until I actually got it.
But all the reasons you list are valid.
Those were all on my list, in addition to the "AWD" in general. Still after 7 months of owning the Golf R the AWD is the biggest "love hate" part of the car for me. It's awesome for the traffic-lights GP, but beyond that, I just still don't see its benefit. Not that I feel FWD is better. RWD is though

I didn't really fancy the black trims on the R either but doesn't the AWD make some difference in the corners? I know the active systems on (Evos & STIs) make quite a difference in cornering ability but dunno how good the reactive ones are. How is it for you compared to your MkV GTI Corey?

[Corey_R]

No, it's a common misconception. AWD slows down corning speeds. The combination of "added weight" due to the AWD components and the front wheels also being used for acceleration instead only for cornering (though, that disadvantage is only over RWD, not FWD of course).

The only time that AWD helps with "cornering" is the acceleration out of corners in situations where the force of the acceleration outstrips the grip which the surface allows, i.e. "low speed" corners, wet tarmac, or gravel/dirt etc. But it's the acceleration where the advantage is, not in the pure corner speed.

There is example after example of this around - the most recent Fifth Gear review of the Lamborghini Gallardo from last week for example. (4mins to 5mins Tiff explains why the AWD is handicaping that car).

The "active" systems on recent Evos and STIs are "torque vectoring" where torque is individually applied to wheels so that the engines power "steers the car" around corners. However, this is not unique to AWD and is featured on RWD cars too. What is impressive about the Evo and STI's torque vectoring is the price point in which that technology is featured.


My R Compared to my MKV GTI:
I don't like the "heaviness" of the R
I don't like the stock R's "power band" for "every day driving in and around town" - boost levels are too far away from the DSG shift points - though much of that has been mitigated by the "Stage 2+" upgrades
I don't like the significant extra fuel consumption from "lugging around" the AWD, even when it's not being used.
I don't feel the "wet roads" advantage of AWD is relevant in this day and age. We now have ESP which keeps you out of trouble, and you shouldn't be driving around like an idiot in the wet anyway (plus, AWD cars can still get in trouble in the wet, and when they lose grip, they lose all the wheels instead of only 2, so you're in a LOT MORE trouble than in a FWD or RWD car!)
I do like the 0 to 60 acceleration of the R though. You simply can't achieve that with FWD, and need a lot more power (or a lot less weigh) to match it with anything RWD.

[MkVIGTI]

Some interesting observations there Corey. Now I'm not so sure about upgrading to the R when the Mk7 comes out. I like the idea of having quad tailpipes though

[Corey_R]

Unless there is something revolutionary about the MK7 R, I think I'll be going the "modified A1" route in my next car. or something similar to that. I think that with increasing fuel prices, carbon tax (*vomits*) and increasing traffic congestion, AWD is just pointless, and I'd rather just have a lightweight but practical car. I'm thinking that with the work that APR has done on the Polo GTI, if the intercooler, intake, exhaust, ECU and suspension/brake upgrades can be applied to the equivalent Audi A1, then you'd have a car with the "luxury and features" of a Golf R, but with the handling and zippiness to kill the Ford Focus RS, any Renault, and the Golf R and Golf GTI (as shown in last months? Motor Mag). Whilst a Golf GTI/R will always be able to achieve much higher power and top speeds, it's just not needed on the roads.

[adzy]

The only time that AWD helps with "cornering" is the acceleration out of corners in situations where the force of the acceleration outstrips the grip which the surface allows, i.e. "low speed" corners, wet tarmac, or gravel/dirt etc. But it's the acceleration where the advantage is, not in the pure corner speed.

.... and the AWD gives more effective acceleration as you dont lose that potential acceleration through spinning an inside wheel or having the MKVI GTI's "lsd" applying the brake. In 1st and seccond gear corners the R will come out with a higher exit speed. And the Golf R still has a better power to weight ratio than the GTI dont forget.
Gues it all depends on how aggresive you drive, from the sounds of your driving Corey it isn't that necessary, when it comes to me though I beleive it would be a benefit especially in the wet when I even have my traction controle kicking in through 3rd gear. It makes a lot more sense when the GTI is tuned to make a lot more power of course.
At a track day at Sandown I was trying to chase Fab out of corners on a damp surface (in car footage is in the gallery section) and forget it! The R was just squatting down and slingshotting out of corners where I was left babying the throttle until I was in mid rpm 3rd gear to 4th gear, made it much more clear to me after that track day... however I do understand where you are coming from as far as weight being the enemy is concerned. A GTI with a mechanical LSD would be adequate IMO.

[MkVIGTI]

Personally The Polo is just too small for my needs. Whilst I like how the Polo GTI looks and the price is simply attractive to say the least, the back seats just doesn't have enough legroom for passengers. The boot is also tiny comparing to that of the Golf. Add in my experience over the weekend helping to set up a party, the practicality of the Golf simply is astonishing.

[sabloke]

I'm thinking that with the work that APR has done on the Polo GTI, if the intercooler, intake, exhaust, ECU and suspension/brake upgrades can be applied to the equivalent Audi A1, then you'd have a car with the "luxury and features" of a Golf R, but with the handling and zippiness to kill the Ford Focus RS, any Renault, and the Golf R and Golf GTI (as shown in last months? Motor Mag).

Keep dreaming then... No offense but fact is VW is many years behind RS in chassis refinement and the next Clio will be turbo charged, just like the current Mini and what have you. The mini mini market is heating up and that's a great thing if you ask me

[adzy]

if it wasnt for poor re sale and poor practicality of the shape, I would be 100% sold on grabbing a 250rs

[MACCAA]

Keep dreaming then... No offense but fact is VW is many years behind RS in chassis refinement and the next Clio will be turbo charged, just like the current Mini and what have you. The mini mini market is heating up and that's a great thing if you ask me

Focus Rs and Megane are highly praised for their handling,YET:
Focus RS is only a couple of tenths faster than the Golf R around Wakefield.
The much lauded Renault Megane is slower than both of them around a track that favours handling....
Just amuses me to see the AWD/Haldex knockers bag the Golf's setup but the stopwatch doesn't lie.That plus you can't turn the ESP off for track use.
End of the day they're all pretty good with bugger-all difference in lap time.

[Corey_R]

Yep MACCAA, and then, even though the Focus RS beat the Renaults to be the fastest they had tested there, a little Polo GTI with some mild suspension/handling and power upgrades, yet still costing less than the Renaults, and $20k+ less than the Focus RS, beats them all! Oh well. I guess VW's chassis ain't THAT far behind. It just needs some Brembo's and KW's too!

[Fab_R]

Got my Motor Magazine last week via my subscription.

AWD all the way...would never go fwd again after having the R...

I still have my MK5 GTI with Stage 1 Bluefin, and its a wheel spin monster!!

[sabloke]

Wow, I had no idea Wakefield is the new world benchmark in hot hatch testing. Silly me, I thought some 23km long stretch of German road was IT, until tonight anyway...
Forget lap times for a moment and think driver involvement. For me that's what matters, that's what I live with every day. Some are after comfort before handling, other are simply brand junkies. Luckily there's plenty of options out there to make us all happy. I'm with Corey though, an A1/Polo GTI class car is the way to go, not mammoths like the 1,600kg Golf Rs or 1,500kg RS250s. You don't need 200kW to have fun, a light car with a balanced chassis and a zippy engine is all you need. Looking forward to the first S1 test drive reports