Alternative to Bluefin

[mrx]

Thanks for the clarification - I was lead to believe that the APR "standard" map wasn't identical (that story's been promoted on various forums over the last 12 months)

The map may be identical or near enough to it not to be picked up by the dealer, but the point is APR loads in their own version of ECU software. Hence being able to switch back & forth with the cruise control stalk etc. This is different from the ST3 & Bluefin (possibly others that are out there) which just change the map itself and let the original VW program do it's thing, just with a revised map.

Here's a hypothetical situation; say your car konks out and has to be taken to the nearest dealer by VW assist. If you keep your ST3 (or Bluefin) & Vagcom (or even more conveniently V-Checker) in the car then you can put your car back to standard before the tow truck arrives. When the car gets to the dealer they decide (either rightly or wrongly) that your ECU is faulty and needs replacement. No problem, since your ECU is running the software it came out of the factory with. Alternatively, since you can't get back to your APR dealer to reflash you to the standard VW software, what happens when your ECU shows up at VW and they analyse and find APR's software on there instead of their own?

the ST3 is supposed to reset the flash counter - and tells me it's doing so toward the end of the flash process - but until I get my vag comm i won't know.

I have now checked 3 cars with different engine types running the ST3 and all of them have increased the flash counter. As said on the other forum it's nice insurance but dealers don't seem to be too fussed by it. I personally got my car fixed under warranty when it showed several successful reflash attempts. They even flashed the ECU as part of the fault finding process, fixed the fault (which turned out to be nothing to do with the ECU) and never said a thing to me. As Guy mentioned above, perhaps they may be starting to "care" about it a bit more, but not at my dealer just yet.

No, i didn't get the dyno sheets - though i didn't actually email them on this, only posted on golfmkv.com
I wanted the the graphs to get an idea of the difference between the different ST3 tunes to help me choose the most appropriate maps, so i wasn't sweating on them.

The only conclusion I have been able to draw by the distinct lack of dyno graphs is that they don't have any. I can only assume this is because they just buy in the maps and are basically re-selling the Alientech product rather than generating their own maps. I am obviously not fussed by this - I still bought it. The first thing I did when I installed the maps was log everything with Vagcom, and satisfied myself that the tune is not going to do any damage.

[datracer99]

Here's a hypothetical situation; say your car konks out and has to be taken to the nearest dealer by VW assist. If you keep your ST3 (or Bluefin) & Vagcom (or even more conveniently V-Checker) in the car then you can put your car back to standard before the tow truck arrives. When the car gets to the dealer they decide (either rightly or wrongly) that your ECU is faulty and needs replacement. No problem, since your ECU is running the software it came out of the factory with. Alternatively, since you can't get back to your APR dealer to reflash you to the standard VW software, what happens when your ECU shows up at VW and they analyse and find APR's software on there instead of their own?

Good point.
A guy I met at the dyno last year bought one of the 1st batch of GTIs in Aus and when the ECU played up VW thought it had been flashed (it hadn't) and they sent the ECU back to Germany to check it. If it had multiple programs in it then it would have been detected.

I have now checked 3 cars with different engine types running the ST3 and all of them have increased the flash counter. As said on the other forum it's nice insurance but dealers don't seem to be too fussed by it. I personally got my car fixed under warranty when it showed several successful reflash attempts. They even flashed the ECU as part of the fault finding process, fixed the fault (which turned out to be nothing to do with the ECU) and never said a thing to me. As Guy mentioned above, perhaps they may be starting to "care" about it a bit more, but not at my dealer just yet.

Chipped are meant to working on this - though they have been quiet on the forum of late.

The only conclusion I have been able to draw by the distinct lack of dyno graphs is that they don't have any. I can only assume this is because they just buy in the maps and are basically re-selling the Alientech product rather than generating their own maps.

Does alientech offer the range of maps that Chipped UK offer? I can't see anywheer that they list maps for specific cars on their web site.

Chipped UK you have been too quiet of late. Time to come in with some dyno charts.

The first thing I did when I installed the maps was log everything with Vagcom, and satisfied myself that the tune is not going to do any damage.

This is one of the reasons why I want to run it on the dyno.
mrx If you hadn't posted your graphs I wouldn't have bought mine yet. - thanks again.

Out of interest - has anyone ordered the track or race maps for any of the golfs yet?

[tinto]

Chipped UK you have been too quiet of late. Time to come in with some dyno charts.

I'd be cutting him plenty of slack right about now. Roughly two weeks ago he mentioned his wife was 9 months pregnant.

Sometimes real life gets in the way of work and posting on internet forums...

[Guy_H]

No Probs,

Not having a go at anyone in particular, but some people keep spreading info thats not correct at all.

We have actually been employed by a large European vehicle importer ourselves to check ECU's to see if they contain non original software, so I can guarantee you that its very obvious if the hand held type devices have been used for programming.

Its also very obvious if Vag Com has been used to clear fault codes or a genuine, registered dealer tool has been used. As soon as you see that the readiness codes (clearing fault codes included) have been set with a diagnostic tool with a dealer code other than a genuine dealer (ie: maybe a Perth VW dealer might be dealer code 654321) - Vag Com's default dealer code is 012345. We have been selling Vag com for about 9 years, so we know the product pretty well.

That is logged in the ECU (Its VW's or Bosch's way of telling which dealership last went into the ECU for diagnostic tracing).

To Quote Sebastian who works for Vag Com & is based out of Germany -

"When being flashed/chipped several things change in the ECU, the checksum(s) are just one thing and depending on the ECU it is indeed possible to read that with a diagnostic tool. Audi does use this to detect chips here in Germany, that's a fact. Other than that a number from the tool which has been used is written and the flash counter is being increased with each flash.
Of course CRC, flash tool code and flash counter can be manipulated by skilled tuner but even then there are certain things which one can use to determine modifications.

The original dealer tool VAS-505x often has test methods which check several engine values while driving and then conclude if the car has been chipped. This is mostly used for TDI engines these days but it is possible. Basically what happens is they compare actual vs. stock values and if those go above the stock limits then it's most likely to be modified. VAG-COM can show you those values too, the only ting you need to do is to draw the right conclusion... "

"The question is not if they can, that is possible as stated above, the question is if they have a reason to start looking. We (Ross-Tech) are working with many dealer techs, and especially here in Europe such checks as described are becoming more and more important these days. If it is possible to detect a tuning depends on your tuners work and of course you."

Oettinger in Germany have a lot of experience with this and the dealers methods of detecting software in a car.

I can guarantee you that certainly APR / Oettinger will pass way, way much further - and the scenario:

Here's a hypothetical situation; say your car konks out and has to be taken to the nearest dealer by VW assist. If you keep your ST3 (or Bluefin) & Vagcom (or even more conveniently V-Checker) in the car then you can put your car back to standard before the tow truck arrives. When the car gets to the dealer they decide (either rightly or wrongly) that your ECU is faulty and needs replacement. No problem, since your ECU is running the software it came out of the factory with. Alternatively, since you can't get back to your APR dealer to reflash you to the standard VW software, what happens when your ECU shows up at VW and they analyse and find APR's software on there instead of their own?

Your flash would be picked up in seconds at the dealership - all faults erased by a non VW dealer, all learned values erased (no driving recorded at all) all readiness codes zeroed, altered checksum and of course - flash counter. With the APR / Oettinger - there is no signs that anyone has been in there.

Don't worry, I have sat with both VW & Audi tech's with factory tools and we have looked at these options - and some 700+ 2.0T's later

[Roobuls]

No Probs,

Not having a go at anyone in particular, but some people keep spreading info thats not correct at all........

Its also very obvious if Vag Com has been used to clear fault codes or a genuine, registered dealer tool has been used...........

What if you get your hands on a VAG-CAN Commander. These are supposed to be more powerful than a VCDS (VAG-COM) and they retail for about $3000.00

Or....

You could go onto flea bay and buy a chineeze version for about $75

Then you'd be buying dodgy gear

And, you'd have to do a software degree to know how to run it.

[fbruxel]

Very interesting thread - learning a lot, thank you all for the input.

This is not an attempt at throwing flame at anyone, just my simple reasoning:

Guy, you said:

Oettinger in Germany have a lot of experience with this and the dealers methods of detecting software in a car.

I can guarantee you that certainly APR / Oettinger will pass way, way much further - and the scenario:


Quote:
Here's a hypothetical situation; say your car konks out and has to be taken to the nearest dealer by VW assist. If you keep your ST3 (or Bluefin) & Vagcom (or even more conveniently V-Checker) in the car then you can put your car back to standard before the tow truck arrives. When the car gets to the dealer they decide (either rightly or wrongly) that your ECU is faulty and needs replacement. No problem, since your ECU is running the software it came out of the factory with. Alternatively, since you can't get back to your APR dealer to reflash you to the standard VW software, what happens when your ECU shows up at VW and they analyse and find APR's software on there instead of their own?

Your flash would be picked up in seconds at the dealership - all faults erased by a non VW dealer, all learned values erased (no driving recorded at all) all readiness codes zeroed, altered checksum and of course - flash counter. With the APR / Oettinger - there is no signs that anyone has been in there.

Don't worry, I have sat with both VW & Audi tech's with factory tools and we have looked at these options - and some 700+ 2.0T's later

From the Oettinger website (and very similar if not the same text as APR's site):

Option 1: Switching in and out of additional power
In times in which even the most ardent horse power junkies are also looking for efficiency a contemporary feature: Via the cruise control switch the customer can choose whether additional power is available or not (see pictures in the download area).

Use: After turning on the ignition the cruise control is also switched on. The driver then holds the “set” button until the check engine lamp begins to blink. Depending on how many different programmes are available, the frequency and speed of the blinking shows which programme is selected. Slow blinking for less power, fast blinks for more power. Once the desired programme has been selected, the driver releases the “set” button, turns the ignition off and then on again and the desired programme is activated.

If dealers are indeed cracking down on chipped cars, and APR / Oettinger has been done to over 700 2.0T cars alone (not to mention other models) in Australia, is it fair to assume VW technicians would be aware to follow the publicly available information from APR / Oettinger to look for this tune and detect it in seconds rather than having to plug in an entire lab to run tests? Cause that's what I did when I was in the market for a 2nd hand GTI and wanted to check if it had been tuned (despite owners saying it hadn't)

I'm sorry if I'm wrongly informed, I've never seen an APR / Oettinger car on the flesh (i.e. the works of the tune programming) and if there's something else to that procedure that "locks out the dealer" then that'd be a good idea, otherwise I'd be the first to be fiddling with the cruise control stalk...

As said above, not trying to throw **** anyone's way, just interested in learning how to find stealth for most of us interested in tuning.

At the end of the day, as discussed in multiple threads in the past, I agree that if someone's that concearned about warranty voidance, then the chip should not be considered at all...

[Guy_H]

Hi Mate,

no problem - Like I said, i was just trying to clear up some of the
"mis information" out there.

You are 100% correct. If a dealer tech was trained on the switching of the programs (which differ from model to model) yes, they may be able to switch it on or off.

BUT - thats exactly why both Oettinger & APR offer the security lockout program - before you can access the program switching - you must enter a 4 digit pin number via the cruise control lever (you select the PIN number) before you can access the switching.

So our advice to our users would be - don't put a sticker on the dash with "APR PIN number is 1234"

[fbruxel]

So our advice to our users would be - don't put a sticker on the dash with "APR PIN number is 1234"

ROFL hahaha I'd put it on a car WITHOUT it when taking it to a service just to observe the guys try to get in...

does it prompt you for a PIN though? Cause that in itself would be a giveaway - it doesn't matter if they can't get in without the PIN, they'd know it's been fiddled with if they get a prompt or something non-standard happens in the MFD screen...

[Guy_H]

ROFL hahaha I'd put it on a car WITHOUT it when taking it to a service just to observe the guys try to get in...

does it prompt you for a PIN though? Cause that in itself would be a giveaway - it doesn't matter if they can't get in without the PIN, they'd know it's been fiddled with if they get a prompt or something non-standard happens in the MFD screen...

haha - I like that - no - no prompting or anything, if its locked - you see nothing.

To lock it out: Set-Set-Resume-Resume-



To unlock it: Set-Set-Resume-Resume Enter Access Code
1 to 4 digits of your choosing



And of course the anti theft option as well (only vid I have sorry)

To Activate To Unlock Demonstration Video of APR Antitheft System
(4.15MB MPG)

http://www.goapr.com.au/images/antitheft.mpg

[fbruxel]

very cool!!

PS: those are some old school stalks

[mrx]

Its also very obvious if Vag Com has been used to clear fault codes or a genuine, registered dealer tool has been used. As soon as you see that the readiness codes (clearing fault codes included) have been set with a diagnostic tool with a dealer code other than a genuine dealer (ie: maybe a Perth VW dealer might be dealer code 654321) - Vag Com's default dealer code is 012345. We have been selling Vag com for about 9 years, so we know the product pretty well.

This is in total contrast to what Ross-Tech themselves say. See the part about stealth mode.

http://www.ross-tech.com/vcds/tour/option_screen.html

Your flash would be picked up in seconds at the dealership - all faults erased by a non VW dealer, all learned values erased (no driving recorded at all) all readiness codes zeroed, altered checksum and of course - flash counter. With the APR / Oettinger - there is no signs that anyone has been in there.

If you use a device which restores your original factory map & software and does not increase the flash counter (aka Bluefin) then would the checksum be any different from when it left the factory? I agree that readiness will not be achieved and no fuel trim values present, etc., so perhaps the total konk out example is not the best to illustrate the point. Although, who's to say this is not as a result of the suspected faulty ECU?

In any case, before this thread goes way off topic, I think fbruxel sums it up best by saying that if you're not prepared to accept some small risk to your warranty with reflashing your ECU then don't do it!

[Guy_H]

yeah - I agree - MRX - I think you should make good friends with your local dealers head tech. Get to the VAS 5051 / 2 / 3 & I'll talk you through the steps & show you some different stuff (incidently, we own the only VAS5052 outside of the dealer network in this country that we know about).

I also suggest you copy down the checksumm & check it yourself & see what happens when you do the reflash.

Anyway, if they suspect your ecu is chipped, who knows who they will send it to for checking

[fbruxel]

yeah - I agree - MRX - I think you should make good friends with your local dealers head tech. Get to the VAS 5051 / 2 / 3 & I'll talk you through the steps & show you some different stuff (incidently, we own the only VAS5052 outside of the dealer network in this country that we know about).

I also suggest you copy down the checksumm & check it yourself & see what happens when you do the reflash.

Anyway, if they suspect your ecu is chipped, who knows who they will send it to for checking

Heh they'll send it to HP and you can blackmail the owner of the ECU to pretend u saw nothing! hehehe

[hrb93]

Maybe i will sell my "NEW" ST3 and fork out the extra for a APR/OTTY as i am willing to accept some responsibility, but i don't think going from 147kw to 180 or so should go hand in hand with a $15K DSG repair bill.

[Guy_H]

The good news is the test cars with DSG & the APR stage 3 (290kw / 550nm) have all been running for months & months, tracked, raced & daily driven (and purposely abused) - they are holding up fine, so there seems to be less & less fear of DSG failure as time goes on. Thats good news for DSG owners & tuners!