Water Injection Setup for Golf R. No more BS please

[Silvertfox]

Water/Meth Injection Setup for Golf

There are insurance companies that will insure illegal mods so long as you disclose them.


Modern water injection systems are quite advanced and have failsafes integrated into them. You should look into them as there is plenty of power to be made.



Now that you have finished patting yourself on the back.
Do you mean you have all of your own personal cars mod plated? Or all APR customers nation wide as well?
Do your exhausts change the number and position of catalytic converters in the system? Cos thats technically not legal.
Open airboxes are legal so long as the filter is not oiled. In fact some cars come with them like the FPV GT

I dont see why you feel the need to poo poo on everyone elses threads when they build something that is impressive. Especially when you are scare mongering with misinformation. If you dont approve of something just shut it.

For the record if anyone is worried about the flammability. There is no issue unless you mix your own.
Running straight water or commercially available products like boost juice which are carefully premixed is quite safe

You can see here someone trying to light some boost juice
Flammability of boost juice - YouTube


Anyways Tarmac. Its good to see people pushing the boundaries and not just taking the same route as all the other lemmings out there.
Forums are for sharing information and id hate to see people stop sharing due to 1 or 2 wankers raining on the parade

Lol! Ignorance is bliss! You just have to keep one eye closed and then you won't see it coming?

Tim, sharing is what forums do best. I think the added details regarding the legal requirements sparks a more balanced debate, it's certainly not "poo poo" as you have suggested. Some might think that the insurance company "fine print" allows you to have an illegal modification and remain insured, haha good luck with that. Now I'd think you would be a wanker if you believed that! Legalities and liability are how they operate their business.

Tarmac, you really need to disclose your business activities with your Public Liability insurance provider! I would like to see their response or the new premium!

It's always fun until someone gets hurt! That's when the lawyers get involved!

[Tarmac]

I'm just musing about the water injections atm...

My issue is I can easily do 500km/day for work (TDI economy, yo) so it will be a case of getting a big enough water tank and making sure I'm allowed to run dry if that ever happened.

I don't spose you wanna take a crack at a diesel do you?

People run it in diesels already. Works well from what i have seen but i havent looked into it enough.

It wouldn't matter if you ran out of water. It's only when you incorporate WMI into the tune. It allows you to run more timing and this is where it could be an issue if you ran out of water/meth.

In diesels it works slightly different. You would lay the WMI over the top of a tune as an added bonus.

Depends how much timing you are able to dial in with water only injection, if its too much and you run out you may get to much knock retard which you dont want. But you are right about meth being that final agent allowing even more timing again.

Not sure with the TDI, you will probably be able to take some fuel out even to make it more economical again but the extra costs of WI or WMI probably weighs out as far as the diesel/economy car goes anyway.

Lol! Ignorance is bliss! You just have to keep one eye closed and then you won't see it coming?

Tim, sharing is what forums do best. I think the added details regarding the legal requirements sparks a more balanced debate, it's certainly not "poo poo" as you have suggested. Some might think that the insurance company "fine print" allows you to have an illegal modification and remain insured, haha good luck with that. Now I'd think you would be a wanker if you believed that! Legalities and liability are how they operate their business.

Tarmac, you really need to disclose your business activities with your Public Liability insurance provider! I would like to see their response or the new premium!

It's always fun until someone gets hurt! That's when the lawyers get involved!

Really? Are we still on about this?

CAN everyone keep there negative comments to themselves please. Why are we still going on a water bottle in the boot?

Really guys!! Some of the comments are so far off topic its not funny. e.g. straight methanol tanks in race cars and drags etc etc. This has nothing to do with any of this.

[Tarmac]

Water bottle. Reference below

[Ideo]

If you get lost in the desert, you can drink the water, potentially saving your life.

Therefore Tarmac engineering > APR

[Greg Roles]

Hilarious. Some real soft cocks out there.

Diesels don't have ANY concerns as per Petrol, as they are basically always "pinging" and running lean. When you advance timing in a petrol car with a water / meth setup, you run the risk of preignition should the tank run dry. If you can't account for that with some sort of failsafe, then you do indeed deserve to destroy your engine. Similarily if you have zero chemistry knowledge, or simple intelligence at all for that matter, you should not be messing around with flammable liquids in the first place. It's a Darwinian thing.

In a diesel methanol acts as extra fuel, and there have been runs by Snow in the USA of a 50/50 mix adding approx 30hp and 50nm to a 2.0 Jetta TDI. Certainly feels like that on my car. Going beyond 50/50 does liberate a bit more power, but not as much as you would think, law of diminishing returns. Also becomes flamable, and whilst there's zero chance of a fireball - it's an invisible flame - you would have to wonder at the guy pulling over and running around the track Tallegega Nights style. Again, if you are dumb enough, you deserve to burn.

Petrol cars don't gain the same "automatic" benefit, as you have to dial in the advanced timing and boost to really gain, but the whole point of methanol is to offset the O2/fuel mix displaced by water, it doesn't combust after all. Plain water injection will "generally" have a zero net gain, cooling vs displaced air/fuel.

Do your research, look WELL into it, and make an informed decision. Certainly not for everyone. Accumulative poison, so be careful, it's the Methanol in Moonshine that sends you blind. Would take a lot though!

[Tarmac]

If you get lost in the desert, you can drink the water, potentially saving your life.

Therefore Tarmac engineering > APR

LOL, see so many benefits. This is 1 of the other "main" reasons i keep this water in my boot. Its a survival tool.

Hilarious. Some real soft cocks out there.

Diesels don't have ANY concerns as per Petrol, as they are basically always "pinging" and running lean. When you advance timing in a petrol car with a water / meth setup, you run the risk of preignition should the tank run dry. If you can't account for that with some sort of failsafe, then you do indeed deserve to destroy your engine. Similarily if you have zero chemistry knowledge, or simple intelligence at all for that matter, you should not be messing around with flammable liquids in the first place. It's a Darwinian thing.

In a diesel methanol acts as extra fuel, and there have been runs by Snow in the USA of a 50/50 mix adding approx 30hp and 50nm to a 2.0 Jetta TDI. Certainly feels like that on my car. Going beyond 50/50 does liberate a bit more power, but not as much as you would think, law of diminishing returns. Also becomes flamable, and whilst there's zero chance of a fireball - it's an invisible flame - you would have to wonder at the guy pulling over and running around the track Tallegega Nights style. Again, if you are dumb enough, you deserve to burn.

Petrol cars don't gain the same "automatic" benefit, as you have to dial in the advanced timing and boost to really gain, but the whole point of methanol is to offset the O2/fuel mix displaced by water, it doesn't combust after all. Plain water injection will "generally" have a zero net gain, cooling vs displaced air/fuel.

Do your research, look WELL into it, and make an informed decision. Certainly not for everyone. Accumulative poison, so be careful, it's the Methanol in Moonshine that sends you blind. Would take a lot though!

I have nothing to add to this other than its good info and totally topic related and helpful information, especially for the diesel guys.

[Guy_H]

So are we finished with the personal attacks? Anyone want's to challenge the information & data I have posted, feel free.

If you want to attack me personally, my phone number is 1300 730 949 - give me a call - That goes for you Tim @ Dubadiction - you should concentrate on selling to your own customers.

The thread is titled "Water/Meth Injection Setup for Golf" and my comments related directly to it. The OP sells / manufactures kits & parts thereof so has a vested interested in promoting to sell - good on him.

Now on the topic of failsafes to prevent damaged engines, as previously discussed - the only way we figured it could be solved was nozzle monitoring and instand boost bump if nozzle flow stopped.

Labonte Motorsports used to make a failsafe kit, but from my year old research, the next best is FJO Racing products kit with boost monitoring.

If anyone has any technical input to add feel free. I'm all for more safe horsepower in the correct applications. After being at the drags on Wednesday night, I'm quite addicted to the power the NOS adds & how they engineer these systems into cars.

[Greg Roles]

[Tarmac]

Guy Please stop. Everyone else please stop. I havent lowered my self to this girly BS because im trying to keep the reputation i have but now i will kindly say a few words. Im a small player in the market, i do this for fun. Its like your jealous or something....when there is clearly nothing to be jealous of. But in all fairness Guy you started all this banter, I was offended buy some of your comments but bit my tongue. Several people have said negative/personal attacks referring to your comments. DO you honestly think they are just doing this because they are bored?? NO!! They arent, its because what you have written is totally not needed, your shooting your self in the foot. I assume you realize this. Others have challenged and proved some of your aged information wrong. Comments from others were not called for either but i see why they did it.

If anyone has any attacks on myself, like Guy. Please PM me or call me. Im a reasonable guy. Im happy to take constructive criticism.

Ill close the thread on the next BS comment someone posts. And i really dont want to because this info is good

ANYWAY!!!

Ever since i posted the thread ive been trying to change the title of it to Water Injection but it wont change. Annoying. Apologies for any confusion.

In regards to fail safes. If you are running a race car with a methanol setup then there are several good systems out there to stop the flow.

At the end of the day if we are going to talk about race cars, then there is so many risks regardless of what you do. Any car that has any modification is at risk. Fuel pumps that we change, fuel lines, turbos, exhausts etc etc all come with risk caused my human error. A fuel tank can easily go up in flames and explode. Personally, im super happy my water isnt flammable hence i made the decision to only run water.

LOL, Greg. Love that movie.

[team_v]

Ever since i posted the thread ive been trying to change the title of it to Water Injection but it wont change. Annoying.

In regards to fail safes. If you are running a race car with a methanol setup then there are several good systems out there to stop the flow.

At the end of the day if we are going to talk about race cars, then there is so many risks regardless of what you do. Any car that has any modification is at risk. Fuel pumps that we change, fuel lines, turbos, exhausts etc etc all come with risk caused my human error. A fuel tank can easily go up in flames and explode. Personally, im super happy my water isnt flammable hence i made the decision to only run water.

LOL, Greg. Love that movie.

You can't change the title once a reply has been submitted, you have to get a moderator to do it.

I think the discussion on legalities is actually important and a distinction between water and water/meth as well as a lot of people wouldn't know the intricacies of the ADRs and insurance implications of these systems.

[Tarmac]

You can't change the title once a reply has been submitted, you have to get a moderator to do it

Thanks Clay. I didnt know that.

[Swainey32]

Excellent to see people stepping out of the boundaries of whats readily available and doing trial and error on their own vehicles.

If we never did trial and error, the world would not move forward, and hence why we have had situations of blown engines, somebody made a mistake, they certainly wont do that again.

I know John from Tigersoft has been running water/meth for a decent amount of time now, and his M3 loves it, protection against detonation is something every tuner should look into. And those just after lower intake temperatures with lowest risk, whats safer than water in a controlled input?

I say, well done Tarmac, would like to see this on a few more cars.

[Tarmac]

Excellent to see people stepping out of the boundaries of whats readily available and doing trial and error on their own vehicles.

If we never did trial and error, the world would not move forward, and hence why we have had situations of blown engines, somebody made a mistake, they certainly wont do that again.

I know John from Tigersoft has been running water/meth for a decent amount of time now, and his M3 loves it, protection against detonation is something every tuner should look into. And those just after lower intake temperatures with lowest risk, whats safer than water in a controlled input?

I say, well done Tarmac, would like to see this on a few more cars.

Thanks mate, very well put. As you said, this is nothing new and its been around for ages. I guess people just dont know enough about it or didnt want to know. Not sure.

Everything i have done has had a lot of thought put into it before its even been started, that said, there is always some trial and error to be had. Id prefer to have it 70% right from the start over putting little thought into it and having it 30% right instead.

Next week i will be able to share some more hard data for everyone to see.

Cheers

[parso_rex]

You could pretty easily set up a failsafe by having a secondary solenoid send manifold pressure direct to the actuator port thereby capping boost at actuator spring pressure. The solenoid triggered by a level sensor in the tank

I can totally see the use of a water injection kit solely as a safeguard for a car with heavy track use as it can really aid in reducing knock should some situation bring this on. It also safeguards against poor fuel quality and we certainly have that here in Aus where 98 Ron is not 98 Ron.

[h100vw]

Aquamist have a flow detector and can cut the boost by wiring the N75 through the controller. Not sure how quick the intervention needs to be to prevent an explosion. Not a worry on straight water though.

Gavin