Water Injection Setup for Golf R. No more BS please

[Mysticality]

...Diesels don't have ANY concerns as per Petrol, as they are basically always "pinging" and running lean. When you advance timing in a petrol car with a water / meth setup, you run the risk of preignition should the tank run dry. If you can't account for that with some sort of failsafe, then you do indeed deserve to destroy your engine. Similarily if you have zero chemistry knowledge, or simple intelligence at all for that matter, you should not be messing around with flammable liquids in the first place. It's a Darwinian thing.

In a diesel methanol acts as extra fuel, and there have been runs by Snow in the USA of a 50/50 mix adding approx 30hp and 50nm to a 2.0 Jetta TDI. Certainly feels like that on my car. Going beyond 50/50 does liberate a bit more power, but not as much as you would think, law of diminishing returns. Also becomes flamable...

So its basically the same as diesel/LPG, then?
I.E. When the bottles empty you're back to 60% efficiency instead of 80-90?

Sorry for being cautious!


EDIT: I'm only comparing LPG to WI in regards to the ability of the engine to operate in the absense of the aftermarket system. I am in no way claiming that they do the same thing.

[Greg Roles]

Yep, in the oilers you simply lose the added effect when it runs out. Exactly the same as LPG, and NOS for that matter : )

[noone]

Water Injection Setup for Golf R. No more BS please

I'm a little confused by some of the ideas in this thread. Huge number of WM conversations on Vortex, never had the patience.

So, if water injection is so positive for turbo vehicles, why does high humidity seem to reduce power (pants dyno)? If it helps add power, have any manufacturers made a vehicle with this?

Love the box in the boot, very slick. Is the pump there as well? Can you hear it?

I'm a little confused by the different methods of how you would trigger, if you release a product, will you look to offer systems that read from the ECU / Obd port / temp sensor / existing sensor?

WM does not interest me, but a v1 tune on polo / golf produces a lot of heat, I like the idea of having more timing at the cost of a top-up of water. The boot option is tidy, I could build by sub-box over it to make it double-stealthy.

Seems very odd to say you can't add an additive to the intake, perhaps the nozzle could be situated outside of the intake, which just happens to be right in front of it (then you'd loose some to the air filter).

Love to see a blue slip on your setup, would add a lot of confidence to the streetability of the mod.

Is there a option to have the nozzle post turbo? Seems like closer to the intake manifold would offer slightly quicker cooling.

[Tarmac]

I'm a little confused by some of the ideas in this thread. Huge number of WM conversations on Vortex, never had the patience.

So, if water injection is so positive for turbo vehicles, why does high humidity seem to reduce power (pants dyno)? If it helps add power, have any manufacturers made a vehicle with this?

Love the box in the boot, very slick. Is the pump there as well? Can you hear it?

I'm a little confused by the different methods of how you would trigger, if you release a product, will you look to offer systems that read from the ECU / Obd port / temp sensor / existing sensor?

WM does not interest me, but a v1 tune on polo / golf produces a lot of heat, I like the idea of having more timing at the cost of a top-up of water. The boot option is tidy, I could build by sub-box over it to make it double-stealthy.

Seems very odd to say you can't add an additive to the intake, perhaps the nozzle could be situated outside of the intake, which just happens to be right in front of it (then you'd loose some to the air filter).

Love to see a blue slip on your setup, would add a lot of confidence to the streetability of the mod.

Is there a option to have the nozzle post turbo? Seems like closer to the intake manifold would offer slightly quicker cooling.

I think the humidity problems is an air density thing and its also still quite a warm air. Manufacturers dont do it because what soccer mum is going to remember to put fuel AND water in there car. haha

Most systems can be set up to run off MAF readings. So once the MAF reads a certain flow which will equate to a certain boost and or load it can start to spray water. You can also hook it in to do it from injector duty cycle. Smart people can add maps to the ECU programming and then wire a controller in to the ECU for AUX ports. However i honestly think the best and most simplest way for our cars is boost based. The controller is plugged into a boost source and you set it when you want it to come on, it comes on at a low duty cycle and then ramps up to full flow as boost rises.

Useless having a nozzle post turbo because it has no effect by the time it reaches the engine, the intercooler also being hot soaks up any effect. You can have 1 there but you need at least 1 or 2 more after the intercooler for it to work, becomes very messy. You can have a nozzle pre turbo which is similar, but if you get droplets on the turbo compressor wheel you can damage it and then your turbo.

My pump is attached to the tank. The tank has inserts in it for bolts. Rubber mounts to stop any vibration. I cant hear the pump at all in the car when its on. The bracket uses the OEM anchor mount points so there is no ugly drilling or modification and it can all be returned to stock. I actually thought about it, hehe. I can also get the boot cover out and the spare wheel out. Winning.

Help?

[Tarmac]

You could pretty easily set up a failsafe by having a secondary solenoid send manifold pressure direct to the actuator port thereby capping boost at actuator spring pressure. The solenoid triggered by a level sensor in the tank

I can totally see the use of a water injection kit solely as a safeguard for a car with heavy track use as it can really aid in reducing knock should some situation bring this on. It also safeguards against poor fuel quality and we certainly have that here in Aus where 98 Ron is not 98 Ron.

Dooable, needed? Probably not with my setup. Maybe with a lot of Meth. Agree about the fuel, lucky us. haha

[noone]

Help?

Yeah dude, its an interesting one.

Cheers.

[damn66]

nice :p

[Bug_racer]

Just for clarification:

A "Water" Injection system that delivers a fluid into the intake tract of a vehicle is deemed an auxiliary fuel system - and all auxiliary fuel systems need to comply to ADR 17 - that is nationally - not state per state.

As there is no control over the type of "liquid" that could be put accidentally or on purpose into the tank (unlike a proper fuel tank), the system must comply with that ADR.

An engineer cannot blue plate it (certainly in QLD) if its connected to the intake manifold, and under the regulations it falls directly into the same category as NOX.

An engineer can plate an external intercooler mister / mist system, and Cams allows water sprays onto an intercooler or brake system. If the external spray is found to contain methanol, you won't be allowed to enter the track.

I'm sure some people are aware that a workshop was busted cheating in last years "Motor Magazine's" Tuner Challenge. This particular team had installed a "Water" injection system just like Ben's above.

Then someone accidentally filled the tank with methanol & forgot to add water (they obviously mistakenly grabbed the wrong bottle at the workshop).

The car ran extremely high numbers on the dyno (strange eh?) and then hurt the motor. The "water" injection system was well hidden.

Next day at the drag strip, one of Australia's best racing drivers took the same car down WSID's 1/4 mile drag strip. The car suffered a catastrophic failure at 140mph at about the 350 metre mark. The car spun & missed the concrete wall by centimetres.

Anyway, in the aftermath of the "incident", the ~ 20 litre water injection plastic tank (just like Ben's) was discovered in the boot of the car. Of course it was accidentally filled with a flammable liquid & the ramifications of what could have happened if this car had have impacted the wall at 140mph would have been: A giant fireball & a dead pro driver.

This bought out all the rules & regulations, including all those for drag cars, circuit cars & road cars.

Now in the particular "sedan", the "water" tank was enclosed in the boot. The boot used to be classified as a separate compartment to the passenger compartment, but fold down rear seats have complicated that issue for engineers. Certainly in a Golf, the "boot" is part of the passenger compartment. In an impact the "water" tank could split & spray the "water" all over the occupants - lets hope its not flammable water like the case in Sydney.

Now with insurance, most insurance companies we deal with will insure a car with "legal" modifications.

Have an accident with a water tank in the back of your car hooked to the inlet & see what your insurance company thinks of that.

Now I have only touched on the technicalities & legalities of having this in a road car - we have not addressed the implications on the engine in the case of a blocked nozzle or a pump failure. That is an interesting discussion in itself.

Now you may ask why am I so "involved" in this?

Our group (Australian & NZ dealers) that we are responsible for, collectively modifies over 1000 vehicles a year. It is our business to advise our customers & our dealers on the law & protect their interests. This is not a hobby or part time business, and we treat it seriously. We have all our cars mod plated & are well versed with the procedures & laws, right from a simple stage 1 upgrade, high flow catalysts, open airboxes, brake & suspension updates - right through to fitting turbo & superchargers to normally aspirated cars.

Are you aware that the washer bottle has alcohol in it to prevent the fluid inside from freezing ? I dont know the ratio but have a sniff next time you get a new car and you'll see what I mean .

[JonP01]

Are you aware that the washer bottle has alcohol in it to prevent the fluid inside from freezing ? I dont know the ratio but have a sniff next time you get a new car and you'll see what I mean .

How does a washer bottle not connected in any way whatsoever to an engine intake system and segregated into a completely different compartment to the passenger cell have anything to do with an injection system whose tank is situated into the same cell as the passenger area and is connected to the vehicle intake system?

[Bug_racer]

How does a washer bottle not connected in any way whatsoever to an engine intake system and segregated into a completely different compartment to the passenger cell have anything to do with an injection system whose tank is situated into the same cell as the passenger area and is connected to the vehicle intake system?

The washer bottle contains a flammable liquid .
Ok , how did the Saab 900 with its water injection kit get passed ADRs then ?

[Bug_racer]

[Bug_racer]

Probably the most famous engine that used this was the Spitfire, and it was only used on take off.

Wait . what the ?

Im sorry but the Germans were far more advanced than anyone in the field of water-meth injection .
The later ME-109 G10 models it was pretty much standard getting the the MW50 kit fitted (info here : MW 50 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

Before they stopped experimenting with piston engines they were testing a compound turbo engine intercooled that would use both MW-50 and GM1-s Nitrous systems in a FW-190 chassis and a highly modified DB603 engine . It never flew in full configuration due to the unreliability of the Hirth turbo's , but rumoured to make 3000+hp

[Transporter]

Are you aware that the washer bottle has alcohol in it to prevent the fluid inside from freezing ? I dont know the ratio but have a sniff next time you get a new car and you'll see what I mean .

Yeah, it was designed, made by the car manufacturer and approved for use on the roads.
Any container with the flameable liquid you make and bolt in the car could make such a car not roadworthy, potentialy dangerous not just to the car owner but to others as well.

[Tim]

Its all irrelevant because water isnt flammable unless someone is doing some coal seam gas mining in your area

[irecovery]

2015 Audi A3 2.0 TFSI IS38 Turbo APR

Water Injection Setup for Golf R

Hi guys & girls,

Just thought i would share my water injection setup with you. Although i am only running Water you can run Methanol if you wish. Photos first, information after.


















Ok so my setup consists of 2 nozzles. 1 smaller nozzle is placed just after the intercooler. I drilled and taped a hole in the intercooler outlet pipe and fitted the nozzle so it was flush with the inner diameter. This nozzle dramatically cools down the air going up the uptake pipe, most importantly it feeds the intake air temp sensor the information we want which is that the air is now super cool. This then tells the ECU "hey man its cool to run all that timing/boost we tuned into it".

The 2nd nozzle is placed in my specially made throttle body spacer. The best bit is i have made 2 different types. 1 for snow performance nozzles and 1 for devilsown nozzles (yes they are different) Anyway now my plug is over back to the story. The 2nd nozzle is larger than the first and this really feeds a lot of water/meth spray into the intake manifold which is fed down through the head into the cylinders. Note that having a main nozzle before the throttle body is not a good idea (some after market uptake pipes have a position for them) and it can damage the throttle body butterfly assembly and cause it to fail. Also note that i am using the stock uptake pipe.

Now i have nice cool atomized spray (super fine mist) going into my intake manifold. This dramatically reduces heat inside the cylinders. (up to -300degrees, "apparently") Protects pistons, gives more consistent power, more power by enabling you to run a lot more timing and or boost. (more power) on a stage 2 Golf R you can obtain up to 28awkw more just be running a similar setup.

The tank. 8.5 litre race tank. Baffled, 250psi pump attached to it and i have installed a float level sensor so i am warned on the controller when the level is getting low. How is it held in? With a custom bracket i made to hold the tank in place, this sits on top but is floating on the floor of the boot. I can still get my spare wheel out etc. Winning. How noisy is it inside the cabin? WELL, i cant hear it at all. It makes no noise.

Controller: Progressive boost controller. I have mine set to start coming on around 8psi which it starts feeding at about 20% duty cycle. Then by 20psi it is at 95-100% duty cycle and stays on 100% until the throttle has been lifted off or boost goes below 8psi. Power light, pump on light and level sensor light so its a fairly safe setup.

All in all i think this is a very neat and tidy setup. It serves its purpose perfectly and is a good value for money upgrade for anyone with a low to heavily modified setup. Especially in our hot climate.

Cheers

Ben

Hi. I need your help in setting up water meth in my modified Audi A3. I have the IS38 turbocharger, bull x downpipe, APR intercooler, milltek non-resonated exhaust, APR carbon fiber intake, and Forge blow off valve. I had purchased snow performance water meth kit but had some issues. I had a throttle body spacer like you do and was spraying water meth. However, the system was somehow drowing my car. I had trouble starting the car and began having misfiring codes. I had to remove the water meth kit and all of my problems resolved. I was thinking maybe AEM water meth kit might be better because it has a switch of when to turn the meth on and off. Can you explain to me why dis you install a nozzle in the intercooler pipe? Did you notice any gains in hp? Thank you.