Volkswagen under investigation over illegal software that masks pollution

[Transporter]

In answer to my own question If we lose it doesnt cost us anything

So, who pays? I don't think that lawyers do much of the volunteers work.

[Guest001]

So, who pays? I don't think that lawyers do much of the volunteers work.

Its a no win no fee action if we lose they dont get paid.

I asked the questions of them and as the emails are confidential to me I cant post them PM me if you want to

If you have joined the action there is a FAQ with most of it in it.

[Rawcpoppa]

For those of you with access to BBC shows in some way:

VW cars can also cheat European emissions tests, BBC learns

VW cars can also cheat European emissions tests, BBC learns - BBC News

A laboratory test carried out for BBC Panorama shows that Volkswagen diesel cars programmed with a "defeat device" can cheat official European pollution tests, as well as tests in the US.

The company told the BBC it believes this is the first time the cheating software has been filmed in action.

VW has admitted it used the device to rig tighter pollution tests in America.

But it's been more ambiguous about whether it used the same tactics to actively cheat official European tests.

Panorama's results suggest that it did.

It could have huge implications for the company, which says it is still yet to determine whether the cheating software even breaks the law in Europe.

VW has confirmed that 8.5 million European cars have the software, 1.2 million of them in the UK.

The defeat device is a programme in the car's computer that can work out when it is being tested in a laboratory, and then cut poisonous nitrogen oxide (NOx) gas pollution from the exhaust pipe.

For years, this software allowed the company to pass strict US emissions laws yet still make a car that performed well on the road. Now it looks possible that VW was also cheating in Europe.

A side-effect of cutting NOx can often be lower miles-per-gallon.

Panorama took a VW Passat Blue Motion diesel to an accredited testing laboratory in the Czech Republic. No British lab we asked would let us in, but this lab is governed by the same rules and regulations as those in the UK and it regularly certifies new cars and engines for the European market.

We also took a retired former government vehicle inspector, Ted Foreman, along to make sure everything was done by the book (a 280-page book).
Clever software

And we confirmed the Passat was programmed with the defeat device.

After prepping the car to the letter of the regulations, the lab ran the standard Euro 5 emissions test. It's the same exam this model of car would have had to have passed before it went on sale.

And it passed. Emitting just 167 mg/km of poisonous NOx gases. The Euro 5 limit is 180 mg/km.

VW's clever software knows when it's being tested, because the routine is the same every single time. Starting with a cold engine, in a lab that's between 20 and 30 degrees centigrade, it's then driven for six miles on a rolling road, no turns, with exactly the same gear changes at exactly the same times, and all within a speed at two km/h either side of set limits.

The whole thing, including some idle time, always lasts 20 minutes and 20 seconds.

So, we then tried to trick the computer into thinking it was out of the lab, by simply accelerating hard a few times, taking it above motorway speeds. Straight afterwards, we ran the Euro 5 test again, but with one simple difference. We started with a hot engine this time.

The same car failed, spectacularly. Emitting 435 mg/km of NOx (remember the EU limit is 180 mg/km).

So, drive the same drive, but fool the car into thinking it's on a real road, and it chucks out two-and-a-half times the amount of pollution as before.

When we showed VW our results, they confirmed the car had been cheating.

"With this software, it was possible for the vehicle to recognise laboratory test conditions and the engine control could switch over to emitting compliant nitrogen dioxide levels during the test cycle.

"This would have been the likely condition in your test. As you ran the second test (described as a hot test) immediately afterwards, the vehicle did not recognise this as a test condition and changed its emission strategy."

The car industry has always said that pollution is worse out on the roads because of bad driving, bad weather and hills. Panorama's test suggests that cars are also to blame.

This scandal has a long way to run. We still don't know what might happen to all the "fixed" cars. Will they have a worse MPG for example? And we still don't know how many billions of euros it'll eventually cost the company.

Richard Westcott's report on Volkswagen will be shown on Panorama at 20:30 GMT on BBC1 on 23 November 2015 - and available to watch later via BBC iPlayer.

[Rawcpoppa]

Which of our vehicles have the "OLDER" motor in them

If I get a list I'll post it but as of now I don't have a definitive list.

[Amalgam]

Deleted Post

[wai]

So, we then tried to trick the computer into thinking it was out of the lab, by simply accelerating hard a few times, taking it above motorway speeds. Straight afterwards, we ran the Euro 5 test again, but with one simple difference. We started with a hot engine this time.

The same car failed,[/B] spectacularly. Emitting 435 mg/km of NOx (remember the EU limit is 180 mg/km).

This is still only under 3 times the value, and is NOT in accordance with the standard. The standard requires the car to undergo a temperature soak and then tested from cold. This is a far cry from the "up to 40 times" that started this off in the first place.

"With this software, it was possible for the vehicle to recognise laboratory test conditions and the engine control could switch over to emitting compliant nitrogen dioxide levels during the test cycle.

Every car will use different mapping based on the conditions it encounters. The emission test is also not limited to a single test, but has to be carried out periodically during a mileage accumulation period.

You can only make claims when proper evidence based testing is carried out. That is it has to be in accordance with the test procedure, and it has to have all parameters recorded to show the test is valid.

[Rawcpoppa]

This is still only under 3 times the value, and is NOT in accordance with the standard. The standard requires the car to undergo a temperature soak and then tested from cold. This is a far cry from the "up to 40 times" that started this off in the first place.



Every car will use different mapping based on the conditions it encounters. The emission test is also not limited to a single test, but has to be carried out periodically during a mileage accumulation period.

You can only make claims when proper evidence based testing is carried out. That is it has to be in accordance with the test procedure, and it has to have all parameters recorded to show the test is valid.

You seem to be familiar with the emissions test so I have a few questions about it.

What's the reason for the heat soak and then testing from cold?

If driven the same way would a car emit more or less emissions when it is hot versus when driven/tested from cold?

Bbc can make claims but VW did not have to verify and agree with the claims. However VW did agree in this instance but you're implying in this case that the claims are not valid. Why would VW agree if the claims are not valid?

[arcadelt]

This is a far cry from the "up to 40 times" that started this off in the first place.

The 40 times was against the US standard (and specifically the Californian), not the Euro standard.

[Rawcpoppa]

The 40 times was against the US standard (and specifically the Californian), not the Euro standard.

It also was for a Jetta on the older motor with no urea injection as compared to lower values of the Passat.

[Rawcpoppa]

VW to release fix for cars affected by emissions scandal, says chief executive | Business | The Guardian

VW to release fix for cars affected by emissions scandal, says chief executive



VW to release fix for cars affected by emissions scandal, says chief executive

Volkswagen chief executive Matthias Müller has said the company will deliver technical details on fixing cars fitted with emissions-rigging software to German regulators by the end of the month.

According to a copy of a speech he gave to company managers at Volkswagen headquarters on Monday, Müller said the Federal Motor Transport Authority has signed off on a software update to fix affected 2-litre diesel motors. The regulator has also given the “basic go” to a fix for the 1.6-litre vehicles that will also involve replacing an air filter cartridge and grill. Details are being finalised on a software fix for 1.2-litre motors.

Müller said most of the affected vehicles would not need major work. He said: “For about 90% of the group’s vehicles in Europe the solutions are confirmed. The cost for the retrofitting is technically, physically and financially manageable.”

[arcadelt]

These one line picks are funny as you sound like an.employee! I mean everytime any negative post or link to a lawsuit hits you nit pick any thing to divert attention.

frantic, do you have a car that is affected by the 'scandal'?

[jrgti]

For those of you with access to BBC shows in some way:

VW cars can also cheat European emissions tests, BBC learns

VW cars can also cheat European emissions tests, BBC learns - BBC News

A laboratory test carried out for BBC Panorama shows that Volkswagen diesel cars programmed with a "defeat device" can cheat official European pollution tests, as well as tests in the US.

The company told the BBC it believes this is the first time the cheating software has been filmed in action.

VW has admitted it used the device to rig tighter pollution tests in America.

But it's been more ambiguous about whether it used the same tactics to actively cheat official European tests.

Panorama's results suggest that it did.

It could have huge implications for the company, which says it is still yet to determine whether the cheating software even breaks the law in Europe.

VW has confirmed that 8.5 million European cars have the software, 1.2 million of them in the UK.

The defeat device is a programme in the car's computer that can work out when it is being tested in a laboratory, and then cut poisonous nitrogen oxide (NOx) gas pollution from the exhaust pipe.

For years, this software allowed the company to pass strict US emissions laws yet still make a car that performed well on the road. Now it looks possible that VW was also cheating in Europe.

A side-effect of cutting NOx can often be lower miles-per-gallon.

Panorama took a VW Passat Blue Motion diesel to an accredited testing laboratory in the Czech Republic. No British lab we asked would let us in, but this lab is governed by the same rules and regulations as those in the UK and it regularly certifies new cars and engines for the European market.

We also took a retired former government vehicle inspector, Ted Foreman, along to make sure everything was done by the book (a 280-page book).
Clever software

And we confirmed the Passat was programmed with the defeat device.

After prepping the car to the letter of the regulations, the lab ran the standard Euro 5 emissions test. It's the same exam this model of car would have had to have passed before it went on sale.

And it passed. Emitting just 167 mg/km of poisonous NOx gases. The Euro 5 limit is 180 mg/km.

VW's clever software knows when it's being tested, because the routine is the same every single time. Starting with a cold engine, in a lab that's between 20 and 30 degrees centigrade, it's then driven for six miles on a rolling road, no turns, with exactly the same gear changes at exactly the same times, and all within a speed at two km/h either side of set limits.

The whole thing, including some idle time, always lasts 20 minutes and 20 seconds.

So, we then tried to trick the computer into thinking it was out of the lab, by simply accelerating hard a few times, taking it above motorway speeds. Straight afterwards, we ran the Euro 5 test again, but with one simple difference. We started with a hot engine this time.

The same car failed, spectacularly. Emitting 435 mg/km of NOx (remember the EU limit is 180 mg/km).

So, drive the same drive, but fool the car into thinking it's on a real road, and it chucks out two-and-a-half times the amount of pollution as before.

When we showed VW our results, they confirmed the car had been cheating.

"With this software, it was possible for the vehicle to recognise laboratory test conditions and the engine control could switch over to emitting compliant nitrogen dioxide levels during the test cycle.

"This would have been the likely condition in your test. As you ran the second test (described as a hot test) immediately afterwards, the vehicle did not recognise this as a test condition and changed its emission strategy."

The car industry has always said that pollution is worse out on the roads because of bad driving, bad weather and hills. Panorama's test suggests that cars are also to blame.

This scandal has a long way to run. We still don't know what might happen to all the "fixed" cars. Will they have a worse MPG for example? And we still don't know how many billions of euros it'll eventually cost the company.

Richard Westcott's report on Volkswagen will be shown on Panorama at 20:30 GMT on BBC1 on 23 November 2015 - and available to watch later via BBC iPlayer.

But there was already a video comparing a ford and vw Putting car emissions to the test - BBC News. Sounds like cars being 4-5 times over is normal for diesel cars in the UK and/or maybe Europe. So what is your point? What about the Ford with a smaller engine and still managing to exceed it multiple times as well as do much worse in it's mileage. Seriously get over it. Chances are, the so called defeat device is not considered a defeat device in Europe.
Just join the class action, get some money out of them and buy a ford then delete your account from this forum.

[Ryeman]

But there was already a video comparing a ford and vw Putting car emissions to the test - BBC News. Sounds like cars being 4-5 times over is normal for diesel cars in the UK and/or maybe Europe. So what is your point? What about the Ford with a smaller engine and still managing to exceed it multiple times as well as do much worse in it's mileage. Seriously get over it. Chances are, the so called defeat device is not considered a defeat device in Europe.
Just join the class action, get some money out of them and buy a ford then delete your account from this forum.

How many times does it have to be pointed out that ALL cars (including Ford) exceed THEIR test by something in the range of 4 - 12 times when on the road.
It was the 'cheat' that allowed the same discrepancy with VWs
BUT
When removed, on road actual emissions, exceeded the test figure by a factor of 35 - 40. (not 4 - 12)
Thats the difference!
Do you simply want an ignorant fan base or one that rejects self-delusion.
Me
Just the facts and let the cards fall as they may.

[Eaglen00b]

unfortunately if you own a vw, what is it now 08-2016?, it's been tarnished regardless. The entire brand has been devalued by VW's actions and as we have a diesel tdi its been branded by any future purchaser's as a scam motor, with all the future issues lumped in. So if VW go the increased EGR use route, this will cause other issues with the valve, heads etc and all future sales of any vehicle with that motor will be devalued to compensate for the perceived issues. So even though our multivan 2.0tdi VIN last time I looked didn't register we have lost equity simply by comparing prices 4 months ago to today.
It runs the same engine in the same power setup as your tiguan, 103kw etc.

Hi frantic,

I'd clarify that by saying "...... comparing prices of a vehicle of specific age 4 months ago to one of same specific age today.".

Just in case you get certain nitpickers coming at ya!.

Hair successfully split.

[arcadelt]

unfortunately if you own a vw, what is it now 08-2016?, it's been tarnished regardless. The entire brand has been devalued by VW's actions and as we have a diesel tdi its been branded by any future purchaser's as a scam motor, with all the future issues lumped in.

Fair enough.