Volkswagen under investigation over illegal software that masks pollution

[Greg Roles]

In the absence of a statement from VW Australia (poor form guys - get your act together!) would Bluey and others that seem to know what they are talking about please clarify a few things for me...

As I understand it VW sells the older Euro V compliant diesel engines in Oz, and they only have a DPF fitted for particulate reduction, no SCR or EGR for Nox reduction because Oz regulations aren't that stringent, and they can meet them without needing expensive extra pollution reduction technology, or for that matter needing to use the "cheat" software.

Is this the case?

If so, then unlike Europe and the US where removing the cheat software will mean VW need to de-tune the performance and/or fit extra pollution control devices to meet the emissions standards, here in Oz nothing would need to be done.

Have I got that right?

Of course, a definitive statement for VW Oz would be nice, instead of us having to speculate like this ourselves!

Vw diesels have had EGR since before 2000. The MkV GT TDI era 125 kw cars were the first VWs with a combo NOX and DPF. The Mk 6 from 2009 has a pre NOX on top of the DPF, and the latest MK7 diesels have a much much bigger NOX. The Mk6 era was the first with high and low pressure EGR. We would be unlikely to have the US specific cheat software, but hey lets worry if and when it happens.

[PerthMTB]

Vw diesels have had EGR since before 2000. The MkV GT TDI era 125 kw cars were the first VWs with a combo NOX and DPF. The Mk 6 from 2009 has a pre NOX on top of the DPF, and the latest MK7 diesels have a much much bigger NOX. The Mk6 era was the first with high and low pressure EGR. We would be unlikely to have the US specific cheat software, but hey lets worry if and when it happens.

Thanks Greg, I stand corrected. The particular model I'm interested in is the 130kw TDI Tiguan (MY16) as I have one on order for delivery in November which has now got caught up in all this mess! Do you happen to know what engine this has - is it the EA189 or EA288, and does it have EGR? I looked on the VW website and under fuel economy and emission control measures they only mention DPF, turbocharging, and Bluemotion technologies like stop-start/coasting/brake regeneration - no mention of EGR or SCR. Thanks!

[ian]

American emissions are far more strict than ours. More than likely. Australian car will be ok.

[Ryeman]

Reported today that VW management should have a definitive list of ALL effected vehicles by early next week.
As far as the dealers are concerned, not before time as they remain in the dark still.

[PassatB6]

Reported today that VW management should have a definitive list of ALL effected vehicles by early next week.
As far as the dealers are concerned, not before time as they remain in the dark still.

The European standard levels for NOx emissions is more than 2x the Californian standard. CAli appears to be trying to pave the way for Tesla and other electric car manufacturers by making it almost impossible for fossil fuel driven cars to reach the legal emissions level. Ford and Honda were also fined in 1998 for defeat devices. I think this is going to be widespread.

[Rawcpoppa]

Vw diesels have had EGR since before 2000. The MkV GT TDI era 125 kw cars were the first VWs with a combo NOX and DPF. The Mk 6 from 2009 has a pre NOX on top of the DPF, and the latest MK7 diesels have a much much bigger NOX. The Mk6 era was the first with high and low pressure EGR. We would be unlikely to have the US specific cheat software, but hey lets worry if and when it happens.

I'm willing to bet that Australian ea189 engines have the cheat software as well regardless of how stringent your emissions rules are.

The problem is the info is trickling out slowly. First it was 500k us engines. Then they said 11 million. German transport minister said Europe has the cheat software followed by reports of the decision to use the software was made before winterkorn got the CEO post. You guys have the engines as everyone else. Vw ain't gonna edit out code for one region like that.

[Tuan]

From reading snippets here and there .. same car and same software sold here, USA, Europe etc.

What would be useful is finding out what the acceptable emissions/NOx standard is in Calfornia/USA vs Europe vs Australia.

It does say in some articles that in the recent tests that tailpipe readings were "10-40 times" over what was legal in the US.

[Ryeman]

So I expect euro emissions to only be ~15 times over.

[Ryeman]

The European standard levels for NOx emissions is more than 2x the Californian standard. CAli appears to be trying to pave the way for Tesla and other electric car manufacturers by making it almost impossible for fossil fuel driven cars to reach the legal emissions level. Ford and Honda were also fined in 1998 for defeat devices. I think this is going to be widespread.

Maybe Honda took their time in producing their diesel because it was such a difficult task producing a clean one without cheating.

[gldgti]

Maybe Honda took their time in producing their diesel because it was such a difficult task producing a clean one without cheating.

The cheating has to be rampant.... why wouldnt it be? They design lab tests for emissions where you tell everyone exactly the parameters your equipment will be tested to - ofcourse it will be 'gamed'. These corporations are out to make a profit, bottom line. VW is no different in this respect from any of the other companies that have been caught in the past or will be caught in the future.

If the regulators design testing schemes that are truly real world, rather than simulations, then I'm sure 2 things will happen - 1) The emissions standards will need to be re-written entirely, because nobodies engines will perform nearly as well as the current standards make out; and 2) VW's clean diesels will perform among the best, as they are, like with Merc, BMW, Peugeot etc.

The only thing this debacle really shows is that yes, VW is a fallible corporation that will lie for money like all the others and no, laboratory emissions testing is not a good way to ensure manufacturers produce engines that run clean outside the laboratory.

[Transporter]

Maybe Honda took their time in producing their diesel because it was such a difficult task producing a clean one without cheating.

...and how do you know that they don't cheat?

[theresanothersteve]

... and 2) VW's clean diesels will perform among the best, as they are, like with Merc, BMW, Peugeot etc...

...and how do you know that they don't cheat?

I think the interesting thing here is the BMW in the same test performed as expected.

So, the targets are achievable but at what cost to the consumer. I'm guessing the BMW is 50% dearer than the VW.

[Eaglen00b]

I just hope that in a year or so time we won't see VW matching Hyundai pricing just to compete.......

[gldgti]

I think the interesting thing here is the BMW in the same test performed as expected.

So, the targets are achievable but at what cost to the consumer. I'm guessing the BMW is 50% dearer than the VW.

Yes... For instance I'd be surprised if the VAG V6 diesels didn't acheive the desired results too.
The VAG 4 cyl diesels punch above their weight in terms of performance / capacity. The V6 does not. I found it interesting back in 05 when the 3.0 and 2.7 CR TDI came out, they were underpowered for their capacity compared to the outgoing v6 2.5 tdi. Meeting the newer emissions targets would seem like a reasonable cause. But, the 4 cyl CR TDI came in with the same capacity and performance as the outgoing PD models...

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[cerebellum]

Found a list of EA189 and EA288 engines. Does a specific engine code have a matching ECU for all markets??


1.6 TDI CR GreenLine 77 kW 2010–2015 CAYC (EA189) 1598 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 77 kW (105 PS; 103 hp)
1.6 TDI CR 77 kW 2013–2015 CAYC (EA189) 1598 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 77 kW (105 PS; 103 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 81 kW 2009–2015 CFHA (EA189) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 81 kW (110 PS; 107 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 81 kW 2009–2015 CFHF (EA189) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 81 kW (110 PS; 107 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 81 kW 2015- (EA28 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 81 kW (110 PS; 107 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 81 kW 2015- (EA28 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 81 kW (110 PS; 107 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 103 kW 2011– CFHC (EA189) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 103 kW (140 PS; 138 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 103 kW 2009– CFHC (EA189) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 103 kW (140 PS; 138 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 103 kW 2010– CFHC (EA189) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 103 kW (140 PS; 138 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 110 kW 2015– (EA28 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 110 kW (150 PS; 148 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 110 kW 2015– (EA28 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 110 kW (150 PS; 148 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 125 kW 2010–2015 CFJA (EA189)) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 125 kW (170 PS; 168 hp)
2.0 TDI CR 125 kW 2013–2015 CFJA (EA189) 1968 ccm, I4, 16V DOHC, common-rail, turbocharged 125 kW (170 PS; 168 hp)


The remaining question is how they perform/test running our diesel vs our standards.

Australia emissions NOX limits for diesel (CI) passenger cars (category M)
(https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2012C00284/Download)
Pre 2013 (euro4) 250mg/km
Post 2013 (euro5) 180mg/km

https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_ca.php

If we use the Tier one passenger car level it's 0.4 g/miles or converted to about 120mg/km. Dunno if the numbers are still up to date or not.