Volkswagen under investigation over illegal software that masks pollution

[Ryeman]

From what I've read today your figure (USD14,600) is the amount VAG can be fined per vehicle, nothing to do with rectification costs...

I would think the fines figure is months, if not years, away at this time.
This is just the start.

[minke]

From what I've read today your figure (USD14,600) is the amount VAG can be fined per vehicle, nothing to do with rectification costs...

The federal fine is $37,000 per car. Then you've got state fines. California being the biggest headache for VW.

[wai]

Is there any inclination for any investigation in Australia?

It all has to do with credibility - very easy to destroy but very difficult to regain.

What has regulators around the world concerned is that if VW has done this in the most regulated and litigious market, what may they have done in other jurisdictions. Also, US certification is accepted as evidence of compliance in some jurisdictions.

It is going to take VW releasing the source code of its systems to the regulators so that the regulators can pore over it to establish whether there are any other intentional or inadvertent bits of code that could do other things. This does not mean making it public, but I believe will be one of the new requirements for all car manufacturers in the US at least, and probably globally.

But putting this into perspective, it does not mean that the VW diesels are filthy dirty. A 10 year old car probably produces as much, if not more NOx than the VW diesels.

No one seems to bat an eyelid about the roughly 4 times increase of NOx emissions when using E10 over standard ULP, and there are many brand new diesels running around in Australia without a DPF or EGR or NOx catalytic converter. This is because our regulations are not as severe as those in the US, AND in many cases, they are not classified as passenger cars.

So, there is no excusing VW for what they did and the book must be thrown at them, just that we do not want to be running around like Chicken Little either. We also do not want to go back to the days of the 3 wise monkeys and cover our eyes, ears, and mouth either.

[theresanothersteve]

Hopefully this is sorted out soon and isolated to the United States and not a global issue for Volkswagen:

US accuses Volkswagen of illegal pollution


Volkswagen under investigation over illegal software that masks pollution | Business | The Guardian


EPA: Volkswagen used ‘defeat device’ to illegally skirt air-pollution controls - The Washington Post


Feds allege widespread Volkswagen cheating on clean-air rules


Volkswagen, Audi admit to cheating pollution tests in the US

Thanks for the links.

After reading I'm not sure what will happen in Australia.

There is little doubt in my mind the code will be present in Australian deliveries but I don't know what impact it will have unless it contravenes Australian Design Rules. Do vehicles have to meet set emission levels and does the VW meet those levels with the cheat disabled?

Then there is the issue of advertising claims, could it be reasonably seen that people were buying the affected vehicles based on emissions data? This, and other advertising claims will likely be the bailiwick of the ACCC.

[wai]

And what does the "fix" involve? ECU reprogramming? Does that mean we lose power and/or economy? Can we refund our vehicles? (The specs now don't match what we bought...)

Well, seeing as the vehicles passed with the emission controls all enabled, this is what will be done.

From what has been said, it will result in worse performance and economy. Maybe they will offer to upgrade them to AdBlue, although there might be a cost.

[wai]

id be surprised if VW are still selling ANY 4 cylinder diesels anywhere in the world right now.

Well, they HAVE to stop selling them in the US because their compliance certificates have been torn up. They have to re-certify the vehicles, and it is not a simple once off test. It has to be done at a series of stages while mileage is accumulated, with only routine servicing permitted.

So, it is going to take months (if not years) to re-certify the vehicles. Remember, you do not certify an engine, but the vehicle.

So, they will not be selling them in the US or any other jurisdiction that relied on those certificates UNTIL they are all re-certified.

[Ryeman]

The federal fine is $37,000 per car. Then you've got state fines. California being the biggest headache for VW.

From what I understand, the $37,000 figure is a purely speculative thing from a journalistic headline point of view.
The EPA (fed/state) will be months or more in the defining the size......they'll make VW sweat in the meantime.

[Eaglehawk]

A bit of history:

VW Scandal: Could this be the end of diesel?

[wai]

From what I understand, the $37,000 figure is a purely speculative thing from a journalistic headline point of view.
The EPA (fed/state) will be months or more in the defining the size......they'll make VW sweat in the meantime.

I understand that this is the maximum fine that can be issued per vehicle found not to comply. To apply this fine to all vehicles would require each vehicle to be tested, so it is more of a "poker chip" fine. The poker chips will be used to negotiate the final penalty.

[wai]

A bit of history:

VW Scandal: Could this be the end of diesel?

Well, just as the oil companies were split up, this could well see something similar here.

[Vex]

I wonder if this will affect the resale value in Aus on all models. VW usually hold value well...

Not nice news after spending $90k on a new Polo GTi and a Golf R

[Dutch77]

Appreciate its more than a storm in a tea cup, but I can't help but react 'meh'.

If this kinda thing upsets you buy something else. Otherwise keep enjoying your great diesel vehicle.

As for class actions of cars are hobbled, it's safe to assume there will be something in the fine print that allows a vehicle to be changed to meet local law post sale so would be shocked if that went anywhere. And if it bothers you I'm sure a tune will fix it anyway.

As for VW, the possibly penalties may extend to a years operating profit, or less than 3% of assets - I don't think VAG is going anywhere.

Let the haters hate.

[Greg Roles]

Will be very interesting to see how this plays out, but I can't help thinking there will be a updated diesel tune released, and the cars will start on regen or something to quickly heat up the NOX cat on cold start where the majority of emissions occur in a test. That would be a nightmare.

First up I was surprised to hear it related to NOX and not particulates, as the Euro VI and later engines have a huge pre DPF NOX cannister now, which is a very clever move over the Euro V MKV era where it was all one can. In the MK6 diesels there is a small NOX cat up top in the DPF, that's why they are taller. In MK7 they went to two huge paint tin sized filters, the first out of the turbo being NOX.

EGR helps lower combustion temps, which reduces NOX. It is the sole reason EGR is there on modern diesels. My bet is during the test cycle the EGR went up considerably, and the fuelling dropped as well to lean the car out, and further reduce EGT's and thus NOX. Remember diesels get hot as they add fuel, and run from lean down towards stoich. Cool diesel combustion produces less NOX. Sadly cooler diesel temps produce more soot, and it is indeed a catch 22. If we end up with a cooler combustion cycle via a ECU update, expect far more regens as the DPF will be filling a lot faster. VW have done this as running that much EGR all the time, combined with oil blowby, and all new diesels will start choking up on their own crap far sooner as well. Just my guess with the limited info so far.....

If it relates to adblue, then it's a cost thing, as during the test cycle they will have upped the catalyst, and no doubt likely upped the EGR as well. If it's adblue cars, well the costs of running that, in the USA at least, are going to skyrocket, but I bet VW will have to provide the catalyst cheaper or something.

Personally I hope VW recover, for they have pretty much been at the forefront of modern diesel development, and if they give up like some of the Jap manufactures have now, purely because of the difficulty in meeting emissions, then it could spell the beginning of the end of the modern small diesel car.

Very unlikely they would bother doing this trickery on petrol cars, as it much easier to meet petrol emissions with the far hotter EGT's in petrol engines, from a cold start the cats heat up FAR quicker and are more efficient at higher temps, and you are starting with a far cleaner fuel in the first place.

Pretty sneaky those Germans, but with the new BMW's being able to re-flash themselves via the cloud now, I'm sure they can mess with things if need be too, and all from a HQ office over the net.

[Eaglehawk]

Thanks for the info, very informative.

[Elektron]

Chances are this is actually bigger than just the current issue. Many countries have compulsory emission testing once a car reaches a certain age, anything between 3-5 years. In some countries (Germany for example) this means that some cars with the EA189 engines have already undergone this sort of testing and have probably passed due to this mode having been implemented.

I doubt that this was done purely for the sake of US but rather globally and is general enough to be tripped by the tell tale signs of any emission test being performed on the engine.

The only feasible way out for VW is to release an update that cripples the engine or deal with owners who are face increased rego costs as jurisdictions update their emission testing to defeat these kind of hacks.