VW Golf caught hooning in Vic 167kmh on Westgate

[Rocket36]

yep "its scary so dont try". THe article is about how few people are getting manual licences anymore.

I think learning to drive a manual makes for a better driver as controlling the car has to be second nature, otherwise you just cant do it.

That's crap! If you're NEVER EVER going to drive a manual, then learning to drive a manual isn't going to make you a "better driver". You could be as good a driver in an auto as a manual in every way other than you don't have the added requirement of manually selecting gears.

[Tim]

That's crap! If you're NEVER EVER going to drive a manual, then learning to drive a manual isn't going to make you a "better driver". You could be as good a driver in an auto as a manual in every way other than you don't have the added requirement of manually selecting gears.

yep you "could" be just as good a driver. Unfortunately many wont be. Its a simple FACT that driving a manual is more challenging. Mastering a more advanaced technique is sure to give drivers a better grounding.

[Rocket36]

yep you "could" be just as good a driver. Unfortunately many wont be. Its a simple FACT that driving a manual is more challenging. Mastering a more advanaced technique is sure to give drivers a better grounding.

Better grounding in the mechanics of driving a manual, yes. Better grounding as a driver, nope. Same same regardless of manual or auto.

[Buller_Scott]

how the hell are you gonna text your friends, read aston kutcher's twitter, and facebook your pals, if you've gotta change some stupid stick thing?

[Jarred]

I can see the point tim is getting at, give you a greater awareness of what the car is actually doing (and how it's behaving) and gives you better control over the car. (rather than auto's with minds of thier own..)

I just find alot of auto's dull to drive...unless the car is entertaining for another reason.

[Buller_Scott]

I just find alot of auto's dull to drive...unless the car is entertaining for another reason.

i concur

[Tim]

Better grounding in the mechanics of driving a manual, yes. Better grounding as a driver, nope. Same same regardless of manual or auto.

Nope youre wrong and dont understand my point.

[Rocket36]

Nope youre wrong and dont understand my point.

I completely understand your point. You are saying driving a manual makes you a better driver than never having driven a manual. It's pretty basic to understand your point. The fact it's wrong is also pretty easy to understand because how a car's gears are changed in NO WAY determines how good the person sitting behind the wheel is at DRIVING THE CAR. Driving a manual takes more skill and coordination I agree, but making you a better driver? Not at all! Unless of course you're talking about putting someone behind the wheel of a manual that has only driven autos, which is stupid as they've never changed gears before so of course they're going to be a worse driver behind the wheel of a manual. But put someone who's only ever driven autos next to someone who can also drive a manual and they can quite easily be as good at driving as each other.

Being a good driver is a completely different set of skills than knowing how to drive.

[Speed]

how a car's gears are changed in NO WAY determines how good the person sitting behind the wheel is at DRIVING THE CAR

I'm not going to say that manual drivers are better but I will go so far as to say manual drivers are generally more aware.
(compared to those that have never driven a manual)
More aware of what gear they have to be in when they take a particular bend.

Just like how motorcyclists are more aware of cars and everything else on the road.
If new drivers were half aware as the everyday motorcyclist then the roads would no doubt be a safer place.

[Tim]

I completely understand your point. You are saying driving a manual makes you a better driver than never having driven a manual. It's pretty basic to understand your point. The fact it's wrong is also pretty easy to understand because how a car's gears are changed in NO WAY determines how good the person sitting behind the wheel is at DRIVING THE CAR. Driving a manual takes more skill and coordination I agree, but making you a better driver? Not at all! Unless of course you're talking about putting someone behind the wheel of a manual that has only driven autos, which is stupid as they've never changed gears before so of course they're going to be a worse driver behind the wheel of a manual. But put someone who's only ever driven autos next to someone who can also drive a manual and they can quite easily be as good at driving as each other.

Being a good driver is a completely different set of skills than knowing how to drive.

No you dont understand my point at all. Im talking explicitly about learner drivers. It is quite possible for an Auto learner to be a good driver. Im not challenging that. It is also possible for a manual driver to be bad. There are many factors that go into what makes a good/bad driver.

What you dont seem to grasp is that if you take one really really really bad drivers it is easier for that bad driver to pass their test in an Auto. Driving a manual takes more skill. And the a second nature control of the car. You cant dispute that.

[Rocket36]

What you dont seem to grasp is that if you take one really really really bad drivers it is easier for that bad driver to pass their test in an Auto. Driving a manual takes more skill. And the a second nature control of the car. You cant dispute that.

OK - now it's actually clear what your point is, it makes sense. Your point is actually that it's easier for a bad driver to pass a test in an auto than it is in a manual. Therefore, there is potential for auto-only drivers to be worse drivers than manual drivers. I AGREE with that.

However, you can't generalise that a manual driver is always better than an auto driver. There's a LOT more to driving than changing gears.

[Highlander]

Three Pedals Make You a better driver?

What you dont seem to grasp is that if you take one really really really bad drivers it is easier for that bad driver to pass their test in an Auto. Driving a manual takes more skill. And the a second nature control of the car. You cant dispute that.

I don't often find myself sympathetic to Rocket's views but the above statement really draws a very long bow.

Before we start, I wonder if our 167kph Westgate driver was in a manual or an automatic.

And what are we going to define as an "automatic". I am assuming that you are referring to a manual as a vehicle with three pedals and a gear lever that needs to be manually moved to change gear ratios.

A manual drive therefore means that you need one more skill set to move the vehicle fro A to B. Not necessarily that it makes you any better or worse driver.

I'm old enough to have purchased a tachometer as an aftermarket extra for my early cars.

And I can remember being taught to drive by "speeds in gears" or "engine noise" with no mention of engine revolutions when it came to changing gears.

I can even remember my first clumsy gear changing efforts and looking down at the gear lever to see that I was moving it to the right place... and then looking back at the road .... usually after unintentionally veering a little left and needing some correction.

What can you do with the manual change that you can't do with the DSG or for that case most of today's automatics that have for want of a better phrase "a manual override".

You can change up or down when you want to. You can in many cases utilise engine braking and you can wear out your left leg in traffic.

You probably can pass your test more easily in an automatic but even this is debatable. (except perhaps for the dreaded hill start). And if it comes down to your skill with the clutch pedal and gear lever as to whether you get your licence or not, I don't want to be on the same road with you.

I would put a much higher value on steering and braking, perception, anticipation and attitude than on manual gear changing ability.

Boiled down, the basis of your bias towards people who learn to drive on manual cars being better drivers relies on the premise that a better mechanical understanding of the vehicle makes for a better driver and I certainly have some sympathy for this view but can it be unequivocally be justified. I don't think so.

Think about it,

How is the gear change mechanism connected to the gearbox --- As long as it changes gear and is in the right ratio at the right time, what does it matter

How is the steering wheel connected connected to the wheels. As long the car turns in the direction you want it too, what does it matter. Does rack and pinion, worm and roller or worm and recirculating ball? Does one or the other make you a better driver.

Same goes for the brakes. As long as the car slows/stops when you push the pedal down.

Having learned to drive on manual cars and having steadfastly refused to entertain an automatic for about thirty years. Autos were for old people who didn't care about driving, I bought my first auto when I wanted a particular car and it came in auto only. Two previous cars were 5 speed manuals including a Fiat 124 AC Coupe bought in 1968.

Now its a convenience factor that I really appreciate, especially in Sydney peak traffic. I find driving a manual now more of a "fun thing"

I had the same bias for many years towards diesels, especially when most of the diesels I saw were Mercs. A "D" on the badge signified to me that this was the slow model, that the driver was past it and shopped mainly for cardigans.

Now (probably I am passed it) I have two diesel VWs -- a Golf and a CC -- both with DSG - so it looks like another bias bites the dust.

After this long rant, I think manual gearboxes (with three pedals) will become a thing of the past and probably more rapidly than we expect and clutch control will become a skill confined to those who drive vintage or "classic" cars.

I would like to think I am a better driver because I spent my first thirty years in three pedal cars, but hard as I try, I can't justify those thoughts. Both my children have learned on autos, both have done advanced driving courses and neither has had a traffic infringement or an accident, let alone an at fault accident. They are very aware of what is going on around them when driving and continually impress me with their concentration and anticipation.

I have friends who I regard as great "steerers" but rate as not great drivers because of their attitude on the roads. Their car control is magic but they often treat the road as a racetrack... and they are super efficient at manual gear changes.

And here is a quote from the article that started this debate:

"Michael Selby, chief executive officer of Excel Drive, said demand for manual licences was still strong in Frankston, Dandenong and some western suburbs where more manual cars were available and young drivers had a preference for older, hotted-up vehicles."

[Tim]

However, you can't generalise that a manual driver is always better than an auto driver. There's a LOT more to driving than changing gears.

This was never my point at all. As indicated in the other post above. Its quite possible that manual drivers are more likely to drive irresponsibly given the type of person that is traditionally getting that syle of licence.

That doesnt change the fact that people who are not confident behind the wheel are given a licence far too easily.
Attitude on the roads is a whole different topic to being able to competently control a car.

[Highlander]

All about attiude

This was never my point at all. As indicated in the other post above. Its quite possible that manual drivers are more likely to drive irresponsibly given the type of person that is traditionally getting that syle of licence.

That doesnt change the fact that people who are not confident behind the wheel are given a licence far too easily.
Attitude on the roads is a whole different topic to being able to competently control a car.

Getting back to the original post

167kph in an 80 zone is ALL ABOUT ATTITUDE. The wrong attitude.

Really not connected to car control competence or driver training or ease of getting a licence

[Tim]

Getting back to the original post

167kph in an 80 zone is ALL ABOUT ATTITUDE. The wrong attitude.

Really not connected to car control competence or driver training or ease of getting a licence

And no-one is saying otherwise.
We kind of migrated away from the original topic though trying to outline what could be done to save more lives on our roads.
Excessive speeding is dangerous especially on suburban roads.

The discussion has now gone full circle. I still think the problems on our roads revolve around a lot more than just speed.