2015 Polo GTI, what are you paying?

[Sydneykid]

Need to remember the Polo GTI DSG has significantly less torque than the manual box

But the DSG is faster, in the traffic light GP's and on the track. For those so inclined a little chip upgrade fixes the numbers game and makes the DSG even more appealing.

On of the race teams that I occasionally do work for has an Audi R8, it has a sequential gearbox, as does the same team's Porsche GT3. An of course there's F1 cars and even V8 Supercars have seen the light. Why do they all have sequential gearboxes? Because they are simply faster and less prone to misshifts which can damage both engines and gearboxes.

Don't get me wrong I still enjoy very much driving my manual M3, on a Sunday morning blast it's a bundle of fun and the Skyline on the track is a hoot. Neither of them are remotely "boring to drive" and that's nothing to do with them having a manual gearbox and a clutch pedal. The fact is both of them would be faster and no less enjoyable with a sequential gearbox and there would be a big smile on my face.

Cheers
Gary

[Mi16 Man]

2015 Polo GTI, what are you paying?

Dear Gary,

I've just re-read the few replies in the past day or so re a preference for flappy paddles or a stick.

No one is choosing a manual cause they are 'faster'. They demonstrated their choice for a manual due to the engagement with the car which they feel a DSG does not offer. And it is a fact that a 6C GTI with a manual gearbox delivers more torque for $2500 less than a DSG fitted car. Again, fact. Given the savings made by purchasing a manual, owners could spend far more on tuning given an extra $2500 in their back pockets.

You've kindly informed us that race cars have DSG which they do employ for speed as they are race cars. The Polo GTI is not a race car. I've been to PI, Wakefield, SMSP and MtP for many years and have never seen a Polo GTI being raced. Even the WRC Polo is far removed from the road going version just as the 205 T16 was a far cry from the couple of 205 GTi's I've owned.

Also, may I add, it's my understanding that V8SC's use a Albins ST6 sequential transmission (rear mounted transaxle), not a dual shaft gearbox with mechatronics.

If one gets kicks from a GLGP/TLGP to demonstrate capability of speed on public roads, this requires an reassessment of behaviours which am sure the Highway Patrol would be grateful to assist with.

Anyway, as per Jeremy Clarkson, I still need to buy an Alfa Romeo before I call myself a real driver/aficionado/enthusiast! [emoji12]

Back OT: My MY16 Polo GTI with DAP, metallic paint and tint was $31,500 in May 2015 (high demand for manuals so had to wait!)


MY13 Kluger KX-S AWD / MY16 Polo GTI

[HenryJr]

Ill take the 70 newtons thanks very much

[code618]

But the DSG is faster, in the traffic light GP's and on the track. For those so inclined a little chip upgrade fixes the numbers game and makes the DSG even more appealing.

On of the race teams that I occasionally do work for has an Audi R8, it has a sequential gearbox, as does the same team's Porsche GT3. An of course there's F1 cars and even V8 Supercars have seen the light. Why do they all have sequential gearboxes? Because they are simply faster and less prone to misshifts which can damage both engines and gearboxes.

Don't get me wrong I still enjoy very much driving my manual M3, on a Sunday morning blast it's a bundle of fun and the Skyline on the track is a hoot. Neither of them are remotely "boring to drive" and that's nothing to do with them having a manual gearbox and a clutch pedal. The fact is both of them would be faster and no less enjoyable with a sequential gearbox and there would be a big smile on my face.

Cheers
Gary

Fair call Gary (nice stable of vehicles by the way..)
My preference will still be a stick, irrespective of the 0-100 or track performance (never measured the acceleration times of any car I've owned or driven on a track)
Having had (3) different cars with essentially the same power plant the manual equipped ones were/are much more fun to drive
The Peugeot 306 xsi manual I used to own was also great fun for the same reasons (perhaps not as fun as a turbo Golf though)
Cheers

[Sharkie]

But the DSG is faster, in the traffic light GP's and on the track.

Actually not true for day to day driving ..... the initial lag off the line in a DSG means it is always slower than the manual (unless you jump the start). VW discovered this to their own embarrassment when they let the press loose with both manual and DSG Golf GTIs on a drag strip .... Hence the reason launch control was developed and implemented. And yes, using launch control the DSGs edge a slight win.

Since you cannot really use launch control every time on public roads, you will find that the manuals will (if driven properly) win the traffic lights GP ....

[Sharkie]

This thread has gone off the rails though .... I am actually interested in a best drive-away price for a manual red GTI with the Nav pack .... any deals done out there? Best I've been offered so far is $29K drive-away.

[Sydneykid]

Ill take the 70 newtons thanks very much

But you'll still lose (to a DSG).


Cheers
Gary

[Sydneykid]

Actually not true for day to day driving ..... the initial lag off the line in a DSG means it is always slower than the manual (unless you jump the start). VW discovered this to their own embarrassment when they let the press loose with both manual and DSG Golf GTIs on a drag strip .... Hence the reason launch control was developed and implemented. And yes, using launch control the DSGs edge a slight win.

Since you cannot really use launch control every time on public roads, you will find that the manuals will (if driven properly) win the traffic lights GP ....

Comparing the uninformed DSG driver suffering from "lag of the line" is the same as comparing an uniformed manual driver with a lazy clutch foot. Both are easily overcome with practise.


Cheers
Gary

[Sharkie]

Comparing the uninformed DSG driver suffering from "lag of the line" is the same as comparing an uniformed manual driver with a lazy clutch foot. Both are easily overcome with practise.


Cheers
Gary

Well if you call motoring journalists, who drive cars for a living, "uninformed", then I'm not sure what an informed driver is .... these highly experienced drivers in the DSGs where unable to catch manual Golf GTIs over 400 meters .... repeatedly.

No practise at all overcomes the measurable lag between putting your foot down and the car reacting. Do some reading, almost every single review of a DSG equipped VW mentions that ..... I personally have owned both and the lag is downright dangerous in my view.

[Sydneykid]

Dear Gary, I've just re-read the few replies in the past day or so re a preference for flappy paddles or a stick.

No one is choosing a manual cause they are 'faster'. They demonstrated their choice for a manual due to the engagement with the car which they feel a DSG does not offer.

But then they are quick to point to the 70 nm more torque, why is that? Certainly not for better fuel economy.

Perhaps more to the point, I get plenty of "engagement" out of driving a DSGA equipped car when I want to. The ability to go rap, rap, rap through the gears much faster than I could using a H pattern synchro gearbox is a blast. It's like driving clutchless with a dog box, so fast are the shifts. With no lift of the throttle, no pause in the acceleration. Then I can toad it around with the best of them in the daily commute, letting it self shift. It's a win win scenario for me.

My view, and it's only my view so not worth much, is that "engagement" is purely dependant on how we choose to drive it. Not what device we use to change gear.

And it is a fact that a 6C GTI with a manual gearbox delivers more torque for $2500 less than a DSG fitted car. Again, fact. Given the savings made by purchasing a manual, owners could spend far more on tuning given an extra $2500 in their back pockets.

And when it comes time to sell the potential buyer pool for a manual is 90% less than for a DSG. So getting the $2500 back might not be so hard.

You've kindly informed us that race cars have DSG which they do employ for speed as they are race cars. The Polo GTI is not a race car. I've been to PI, Wakefield, SMSP and MtP for many years and have never seen a Polo GTI being raced. Even the WRC Polo is far removed from the road going version just as the 205 T16 was a far cry from the couple of 205 GTi's I've owned

.Not necessarily just speed, sequential gearboxes in racing have proven to be less costly in both engine and transmission maintenance due to the greatly reduced chance of misshifts. V8 Supercar teams report substantial reductions in cost as a result, which is actually in the wording of the tender that went out to replace the 6 speed H pattern Holinger with its sequential equivalent.

Also, may I add, it's my understanding that V8SC's use a Albins ST6 sequential transmission (rear mounted transaxle), not a dual shaft gearbox with mechatronics.

I did say "sequential" in my original post (not DSG), and the sequential Albins transaxle came after the sequential Holinger gearbox as part of "Car of the Future" (sic).

If one gets kicks from a GLGP/TLGP to demonstrate capability of speed on public roads, this requires an reassessment of behaviours which am sure the Highway Patrol would be grateful to assist with.

A solo sprint to the speed limit is still legal as a I recall, which is especially useful to get in front of that lane blocker traveling sub limit.

Anyway, as per Jeremy Clarkson, I still need to buy an Alfa Romeo before I call myself a real driver/aficionado/enthusiast! [emoji12]

I owned an Alfetta GTV in the 80's, so I qualify

Back OT: My MY16 Polo GTI with DAP, metallic paint and tint was $31,500 in May 2015 (high demand for manuals so had to wait!)

More like "low supply" than high demand



Cheers
Gary

[Sydneykid]

Well if you call motoring journalists, who drive cars for a living, "uninformed", then I'm not sure what an informed driver is .... these highly experienced drivers in the DSGs where unable to catch manual Golf GTIs over 400 meters .... repeatedly.

No practise at all overcomes the measurable lag between putting your foot down and the car reacting. Do some reading, almost every single review of a DSG equipped VW mentions that ..... I personally have owned both and the lag is downright dangerous in my view.

My experience (it's been 5 years with VW Group DSG's) is that they "learn" the driver's habits which can catch you out if you do something out of the ordinary. So if, for example, my wife has been toading around and I jump in it takes a while for it to learn my more "aggressive" driving preferences. A bit of learning time and/or judicious and simultaneous use of the brake and accelerator avoids the off the line delay. Which I have found is far less noticeable in later models, for example a Mk5 Golf GTi was annoying (don't disagree with your "dangerous" comment), but it was a total non issue in a Mk7 that I drove recently. A tweak of the tuning helps a lot as well.

As pointed out above, we are a long way off topic, perhaps another thread ..................

For completeness I do find many so called motoring journalists very much uninformed



Cheers
Gary

[Mi16 Man]

MY13 Kluger KX-S AWD / MY16 Polo GTI

[code618]

[QUOTE=Sydneykid;1193721
And when it comes time to sell the potential buyer pool for a manual is 90% less than for a DSG. So getting the $2500 back might not be so hard.

Cheers
Gary[/QUOTE]

The presence of a manual box in my previous Skoda is precisely why it was quick to sell (manual wagon with decent performance - not that many options around) and the presence of a 7sp DSG has stopped me looking into multiple VAG variants

[Mi16 Man]

Enjoy

https://youtu.be/cb6rIZfCuHI

MY13 Kluger KX-S AWD / MY16 Polo GTI

[Sydneykid]

Enjoy

https://youtu.be/cb6rIZfCuHI

MY13 Kluger KX-S AWD / MY16 Polo GTI

What of course is missing in his maths is the power loss through the torque converter necessary in CVT's. Well, not actually power "loss" (High School Physics, Newton's Law), it's really energy transformation, from kinetic energy into heat. Lock up torque converters remove this in constant speed running but in order to accelerate whilst maintaining constant engine rpm (hence power) the torque converter has to be unlocked and hence consuming (transforming) energy.


Cheers
Gary