APR Tune - 162TSI - worth every $$

[tigger73]

Would the ecu receive that signal if you were using the jb4 that intercepts it and sends something else?

All I'm saying is there are ways for VW to figure out that the engine has been run outside factory specs, keep a record of this and retrieve the information when it is hooked up to the dealers computer. VW techs may have some ideas how the detection works, however again these are going to be rumours and I seriously doubt that this information is going to be public knowledge.

At the end of the day you tune your car at your own risk. You need to go with a reputable tuner/workshop that has professional insurance and will back up their own product.

[Psych101]

Does anyone have independent dyno results for an apr stage 1 tune before and after on a 162 tig? I have only seen apr's dyno results

[tigger73]

Does anyone have independent dyno results for an apr stage 1 tune before and after on a 162 tig? I have only seen apr's dyno results

I've been asking the same question for some time. All we get it APR's claimed numbers and increases based on Vw brochure figure which I know is not correct (but is a more impressive number to advertise).

[Ozsko]

VW techs may have some ideas how the detection works, however again these are going to be rumours and I seriously doubt that this information is going to be public knowledge.

How do you know that they are going to be rumours and that techs do not know anything about this stuff. Is that just a guess or you have facts?

[tigger73]

How do you know that they are going to be rumours and that techs do not know anything about this stuff. Is that just a guess or you have facts?

OK if you're after facts then these are the facts.

A number of years ago (Mk6 Golf days) there were tuners/tuning box manufacturers that made claims that their tunes/tuning boxes were undetectable.

Move onto MQB platform (Mk7 Golf) and the detection software VW computers run has got a lot smarter. I do not know what algorithms/parameters VW checks so I cannot tell you. If you're after facts you would have to ask the software engineers at VW who write the software, however I'm pretty sure they won't be telling too many people.

What I can say is that all the claims by tuners/tuning box manufacturers about being "undetectable" has gone very quiet. None of them are saying anything. I believe (and this is where I'm assuming) that this is because they can no longer guarantee that their software is undetectable. If they have found a way around the factory detection software then they're not saying anything otherwise VW will probably update the detection software and the whole game of cat and mouse continues.

What is a fact is that no tuner is going to give an ironclad guarantee these days.

Well that's my opinion anyway

[Psych101]

OK if you're after facts then these are the facts.

A number of years ago (Mk6 Golf days) there were tuners/tuning box manufacturers that made claims that their tunes/tuning boxes were undetectable.

Move onto MQB platform (Mk7 Golf) and the detection software VW computers run has got a lot smarter. I do not know what algorithms/parameters VW checks so I cannot tell you. If you're after facts you would have to ask the software engineers at VW who write the software, however I'm pretty sure they won't be telling too many people.

What I can say is that all the claims by tuners/tuning box manufacturers about being "undetectable" has gone very quiet. None of them are saying anything. I believe (and this is where I'm assuming) that this is because they can no longer guarantee that their software is undetectable. If they have found a way around the factory detection software then they're not saying anything otherwise VW will probably update the detection software and the whole game of cat and mouse continues.

What is a fact is that no tuner is going to give an ironclad guarantee these days.

Well that's my opinion anyway

I asked Autoinstruct about the jb4 and they still claim it is undetectable once it has been removed. So there are still some sticking to their guns.

[OZROD]

Another question might be, if it is detected exactly what can be legally denied as a warranty claim? Could a drivetrain failure be blamed on excessive power, or a failed water pump, or an issue with the windscreen wipers?
I'd love to know if this has ever been tested in court as well.

[tigger73]

I asked Autoinstruct about the jb4 and they still claim it is undetectable once it has been removed. So there are still some sticking to their guns.

That’s always been the sales pitch from the tuning boxes. However if VW really wanted to find it they probably could.

There will be traces - both physically as well as electronic. It just depends whether they want to look deep enough.

I still maintain that the position to take is that if you modify then if the problem comes from the addition of the tune/tuning box you need to go to the manufacturer/supplier of the software/hardware for warranty on their work and not VW.

That is why it is important that if you are going to tune your car you go with a reputable company that will back up their product if there ever is an issue. Most decent companies will do this as bad publicity can be damaging to their brand/business.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sharkie]

That’s always been the sales pitch from the tuning boxes. However if VW really wanted to find it they probably could.

There will be traces - both physically as well as electronic. It just depends whether they want to look deep enough.

I still maintain that the position to take is that if you modify then if the problem comes from the addition of the tune/tuning box you need to go to the manufacturer/supplier of the software/hardware for warranty on their work and not VW.

That is why it is important that if you are going to tune your car you go with a reputable company that will back up their product if there ever is an issue. Most decent companies will do this as bad publicity can be damaging to their brand/business.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed, I have been reliably informed that VW's diagnostics (also Audi) can now detect any add on tuning box by looking at the data stored in the ECU. It compares requested inputs to logged data and the discrepancies apparently indicates the presence of a tuning box. This may result in any drivetrain related warranty claim being denied. Safest bet would be to accept up front that any tuning (ECU or piggy back) is detectable and move on from there.

Because of this, once you have decided to take the plunge to tune, perhaps opt for a proper ECU tune rather than a piggyback .....

As evidence too, a colleague of mine has a JB4 on his 2017 Audi S3 ..... this is his only mod and it has been flagged by Audi as tuned .... regardless of the fact that the JB4 was NOT on the car at the service it was flagged

[INASNT]

I've been asking the same question for some time. All we get it APR's claimed numbers and increases based on Vw brochure figure which I know is not correct (but is a more impressive number to advertise).

All it will take is for someone with an APR Stage 1 tune to take their car to a workshop with a dyno and pay for a few runs..

I have recently seen a friends RS3 with Stage 1 E85 APR tune dynoed at a different workshop and make 322kw@4 wheels, which is on par with APR claims.

[tigger73]

Agreed, I have been reliably informed that VW's diagnostics (also Audi) can now detect any add on tuning box by looking at the data stored in the ECU. It compares requested inputs to logged data and the discrepancies apparently indicates the presence of a tuning box. This may result in any drivetrain related warranty claim being denied. Safest bet would be to accept up front that any tuning (ECU or piggy back) is detectable and move on from there.

Because of this, once you have decided to take the plunge to tune, perhaps opt for a proper ECU tune rather than a piggyback .....

As evidence too, a colleague of mine has a JB4 on his 2017 Audi S3 ..... this is his only mod and it has been flagged by Audi as tuned .... regardless of the fact that the JB4 was NOT on the car at the service it was flagged

Ok I had heard rumours that this may be the case but now it confirms the fact that tuning boxes can be picked up also.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Psych101]

Ok I had heard rumours that this may be the case but now it confirms the fact that tuning boxes can be picked up also.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't get how that works with a tuning box like the jb4. Isn't all the data the ecu receives coming from the jb4 and it only let's it see what it needs to get the required response from the ecu (e.g. data saying boost is lower than it actually is)? The ecu may be able to log data but that is the data it would be logging (i.e. within normal operating parameters).

[tigger73]

I don't get how that works with a tuning box like the jb4. Isn't all the data the ecu receives coming from the jb4 and it only let's it see what it needs to get the required response from the ecu (e.g. data saying boost is lower than it actually is)? The ecu may be able to log data but that is the data it would be logging (i.e. within normal operating parameters).

There’s a number of modules around the car that are taking in data and passing this around. It’s not just the ECU they would be connecting up to and talking to.

I don’t know exactly how they are doing it but the increase in the number of tuning boxes out in the market has meant they have put some effort into detection to reduce their liability on modified vehicles.

I completely understand this from a manufacturers perspective that they don’t want to be liable for warranty on an item that has been used outside of manufacturers specifications.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HPRS230]

Agreed, I have been reliably informed that VW's diagnostics (also Audi) can now detect any add on tuning box by looking at the data stored in the ECU. It compares requested inputs to logged data and the discrepancies apparently indicates the presence of a tuning box. This may result in any drivetrain related warranty claim being denied. Safest bet would be to accept up front that any tuning (ECU or piggy back) is detectable and move on from there.

Because of this, once you have decided to take the plunge to tune, perhaps opt for a proper ECU tune rather than a piggyback .....

As evidence too, a colleague of mine has a JB4 on his 2017 Audi S3 ..... this is his only mod and it has been flagged by Audi as tuned .... regardless of the fact that the JB4 was NOT on the car at the service it was flagged

Do you know how he was told? Did he get TD1 or TB1 Flag?
Skoda has said nothing to me...yet

[OZROD]

Just a quick update, I finally got out onto the open roads this morning and gave the Stage 1 tune a real test. What a difference! It takes off way quicker, and it's starting to feel smoother in local traffic as well. Now I'm really curious about Stage 2