DSG finally gone in the MK8

[genebaby]

The only reason we are getting TC autos in the next Golf isnthey are giving us the less efficient drivetrain. It's why we still have the 1.4 engine.and we have no mild hybrid options.

Australia is getting the dirty crap. VW aren't doing it as a triumph of the TC over the DSG, it's because they can and yes, most won't notice, but the GTI and R shoppers will.

Same as how the US market got the TC in standard Golf and the DSG in the GTI and R. This was due mainly as the average American was not savvy, but the GTI and R owners would not have bought their cars with a TC, unless maybe all of Europe were using them.

It's for nothing to do with anyones feelings or past issues with the DSG, it's our emissions standards that allow it.

We are not getting the best VW can offer. Skoda on the other hand sold my mother a car with the 1.5 and DSG, though they did backtrack on the Karoq, removing the DSG in a VW way, as they were required in other markets.

[Sharkie]

The only reason we are getting TC autos in the next Golf isnthey are giving us the less efficient drivetrain. It's why we still have the 1.4 engine.and we have no mild hybrid options.

Australia is getting the dirty crap. VW aren't doing it as a triumph of the TC over the DSG, it's because they can and yes, most won't notice, but the GTI and R shoppers will.

Same as how the US market got the TC in standard Golf and the DSG in the GTI and R. This was due mainly as the average American was not savvy, but the GTI and R owners would not have bought their cars with a TC, unless maybe all of Europe were using them.

It's for nothing to do with anyones feelings or past issues with the DSG, it's our emissions standards that allow it.

We are not getting the best VW can offer. Skoda on the other hand sold my mother a car with the 1.5 and DSG, though they did backtrack on the Karoq, removing the DSG in a VW way, as they were required in other markets.

Whilst the emissions compliance certainly has something to do with it, the fact is that the most noisy markets (complaints wise) about the DSG, all got dealt with for the MK8. In the USA, the base Golfs have had the 8spd tiptronic since 2019 (as did the US Jetta's) and the MK8 base Golfs (non GTI/R) will not be released. The same applies to every other "problem" country (read hot weather here) except for Australia. South Africa, Japan and Singapore all discontinued with China not confirmed yet. These countries are all getting GTI/R models only for the foreseeable future.

So ... VW addressed the issues they were having in these regions by 1) adopting a tiptronic instead of the DSG (USA for the MK7.5 and Australia MK8 ) and 2) discontinuing the base Golfs (and thereby the DQ200 DSG). Getting away with lesser emissions compliance is just a bonus .... the benefits of less bad press and costly warranty repairs outweighs the costs of having to run 2 sets of specifications.

[Sydneykid]

More than happy discuss different viewpoints, we are all affected by our own personal experiences.

Personally I have trouble understanding why DSG's are such a huge problem in some countries but not others, why they are OK in Europe and not here or the US, it is a widely held view that the Chine recall was politically motivated to force VAG to build more factories there. Is it possible that it is the drivers that are the problem not the gearboxes?

Mechanically my only issue with a DQ200 (over 200,000 k's combined in 3 different cars) was a failed solenoid on the Polo R/2/4/6 mechatronic unit which doesn't look any different to the solenoid on the DQ250 in my son's MK7.5 R. Simplistic as that is I'm not convinced that the mechatronics on the DQ200 are inferior to those on the DQ250. I can understand the dry clutch versus wet clutch argument, but I have not had any issues there. I can also understand the oil capacity questions regarding the 7 speed versus 6 speed, which could manifest itself as excessive heat, but again I have experienced no problems there.

On the question of the MK8 and emissions, we are getting the "old" 1.4 with the "new" torque converter gearbox, which as a combination passes our Euro 5. Whilst the Euro 6 regions are getting the "new" 1.5" with the "old" DSG required to pass their emissions requirements. There's a lot of somewhat unique engineering involved in our combination, sufficient that it most likely is the main reason for the long delayed launch of the Mk8 here (not that there aren't other factors involved). The lost sales alone, due to the lack of stock, would be $millions, hence why VW endlessly whinge about our fuel quality. Which FWIW is almost solely an E10 and Pump 92 question, our Pump 95 and 98 are both almost at Euro 6 Standard, hence their inflated cost, and wouldn't take much to get them there.

I still retain my view that VW will not gain any sales as result of moving to a torque converter gearbox because 95+% of the customers have no idea that there is a difference to a DSG gearbox, they are "automatics" (don't have a clutch pedal) and that's all that matters.


Cheers
Gary

[Cossor]

Thank you Garry for well thought out comments.

My first VW was the MK6 Golf, (replacing a TC Commodore and TC Corolla.)
This had two problems affecting ease of driving (not reliability)

As a driver I had to learn;

1.0 Do not hesitate entering my garage. Narrow entrance with a raised entry lip caused car to stall if entry speed too low. Then pushing on the accelerator would cause a high speed entry. OK, so try careful nudge of accelerator? Result, DSG overheat and safety disengage.
2.0 Do NOT park facing down hill. This could create a sudden high speed exit in some car parks, with far less control than parking in
my garage. Careful modulating of accelerator and hand brake was required. (My current Passat has Auto Hold to prevent rolling backward prior to uphill start. Have not tried it reversing uphill, learned my lesson from the Golf)

I understand there are two basic versions of DSG used by VW. Dry clutch and oil filled clutch. I think my diesel Passat 6 speed is oil filled?
I have NO complaint with Passat DSG. My only indication is by watching display to see what gear is in operation. the gear changes are so smooth.

BUT I now have to make up my mind between 110TSI Tiguan with 6 speed DSG and 162TSI Tiguan with 7 speed DSG. (Or the laid back 147TDi diesel with more grunt), Compounding the situation, I seem to remember my MK6 Golf was 7 speed DSG

[Sydneykid]

Thank you Garry for well thought out comments.

My first VW was the MK6 Golf, (replacing a TC Commodore and TC Corolla.)
This had two problems affecting ease of driving (not reliability)

As a driver I had to learn;

1.0 Do not hesitate entering my garage. Narrow entrance with a raised entry lip caused car to stall if entry speed too low. Then pushing on the accelerator would cause a high speed entry. OK, so try careful nudge of accelerator? Result, DSG overheat and safety disengage.
2.0 Do NOT park facing down hill. This could create a sudden high speed exit in some car parks, with far less control than parking in
my garage. Careful modulating of accelerator and hand brake was required. (My current Passat has Auto Hold to prevent rolling backward prior to uphill start. Have not tried it reversing uphill, learned my lesson from the Golf)

I understand there are two basic versions of DSG used by VW. Dry clutch and oil filled clutch. I think my diesel Passat 6 speed is oil filled?
I have NO complaint with Passat DSG. My only indication is by watching display to see what gear is in operation. the gear changes are so smooth.

BUT I now have to make up my mind between 110TSI Tiguan with 6 speed DSG and 162TSI Tiguan with 7 speed DSG. (Or the laid back 147TDi diesel with more grunt), Compounding the situation, I seem to remember my MK6 Golf was 7 speed DSG

The stalling is interesting, in over 1/4million k's in VW's with DSG's I can't say as I have experienced a single stall, but mine have all been petrol, not diesel. I reverse every day out of our driveway which is quite steep, for the Golf with the electronic handbrake I just hold the switch up until the gearbox engages, then drop the switch together with a touch of accelerator. The Polo GTi has a manual handbrake lever so it's much the same technique, just a bit more arm action. The auto hold works great on the occasions when I back them into the driveway.

The only real DSG "trick" I learnt early on was rolling up to an intersection, stopping for an instant, then realising that there was small gap in the traffic and trying to accelerate. That's a big no no, the combination of stop start and DSG is a trap in that particular situation.


Cheers
Gary

[genebaby]

No stalling in the dry clutch Polo DSG and the wet in the GTI, in fact nothing to worry about except driving them. These are 2019 and 2020 cars so I wasn't there in the early days, driving my XR8 manual back when DSG came out.

I've also disabled stop/start on both cars.

Your Mk6 GTI would have been a 6spd.

Lots of reviews of late model VW performance cars praising the DSG performance.

[aware]

Interestingly, some reviews have said that just because it is a TC Auto doesn't mean it is actually better than a DSG. Even more so when you actually research who makes the auto. Aisin makes the MK8 gearbox. Having driven an X1 with Aisin all I can say is meh. I found it slower to respond than a DSG and not smooth at lower speeds. If it was a ZF - it'd be a winner.

So for those comparing the TC to DSG because they've driven a ZF, you need to try a car with the Aisin...

Good to see this thread drop into lengthy posts as to why others are wrong.

Just going to leave this here...

[Lucas_R]

^ my Lexus IS-F had a Aisin 8 speed auto and it was fantastic. And this is a 12 year old car now. Unbelieveably smooth, fast gear changes with a lock up torque converter, and they are known for being incredibly reliable. So Aisin certainly can make a good gearbox, but I guess it depends on what VW asked them to develop the transmission, the software and the budget/timeframe they were given. No doubt it will be tuned for smoothness and economy as 99.9% of buyers want this.

It certainly cant be any worse than the woeful DQ200 DSG its replacing, and 99.9% of buyers wont notice or care, seeing as far as they are concerned, both are "auto's".

[Sydneykid]

Interestingly, some reviews have said that just because it is a TC Auto doesn't mean it is actually better than a DSG. Even more so when you actually research who makes the auto. Aisin makes the MK8 gearbox. Having driven an X1 with Aisin all I can say is meh. I found it slower to respond than a DSG and not smooth at lower speeds. If it was a ZF - it'd be a winner.

So for those comparing the TC to DSG because they've driven a ZF, you need to try a car with the Aisin...

Good to see this thread drop into lengthy posts as to why others are wrong.

Just going to leave this here...

Cheers
Gary

[aware]

^ my Lexus IS-F had a Aisin 8 speed auto and it was fantastic. And this is a 12 year old car now. Unbelieveably smooth, fast gear changes with a lock up torque converter, and they are known for being incredibly reliable. So Aisin certainly can make a good gearbox, but I guess it depends on what VW asked them to develop the transmission, the software and the budget/timeframe they were given. No doubt it will be tuned for smoothness and economy as 99.9% of buyers want this.

It certainly cant be any worse than the woeful DQ200 DSG its replacing, and 99.9% of buyers wont notice or care, seeing as far as they are concerned, both are "auto's".

Again that will be a different gearbox given it's a sports V8, not a 4 cyl like a Golf or X1. When you research why these engines have the new 8AT, it has nothing to do with reliability.

These sweeping statements are hilarious - same sweeping statements from "car experts" when I bought my Octavia after a lemon Subaru. Subaru had 6 warranty claims (including paint bubbling amongst numerous electircal gremlins) in 18 months and 6,000kms. Conversely, 84,500km and 5 years later my Octavia has had 1 minor warranty claim (door lock)...

My point is that individual experiences with products are different for each person. You never read how happy someone is with a product on the internet, but you can always find a horror story (or 50).

Good luck to VW and Skoda with the 8AT. But my money will always go to a DSG or a ZF.

[Lucas_R]

Again that will be a different gearbox given it's a sports V8, not a 4 cyl like a Golf or X1. When you research why these engines have the new 8AT, it has nothing to do with reliability.

These sweeping statements are hilarious - same sweeping statements from "car experts" when I bought my Octavia after a lemon Subaru. Subaru had 6 warranty claims (including paint bubbling amongst numerous electircal gremlins) in 18 months and 6,000kms. Conversely, 84,500km and 5 years later my Octavia has had 1 minor warranty claim (door lock)...

My point is that individual experiences with products are different for each person. You never read how happy someone is with a product on the internet, but you can always find a horror story (or 50).

Good luck to VW and Skoda with the 8AT. But my money will always go to a DSG or a ZF.

The transmission was taken from the Lexus flagship luxury sedan (the LS460) and modified to suit the sporty nature of the IS-F.

Too be honest I dont know why the 8 speed auto is such a hot topic, seeing the average buyer of the lower spec model Mk8 wont know or care, and most people on this forum will be buying the Mk8 in either GTI or R form which or course has the DSG.

FYI I have the ZF8 speed in my SQ5 and honestly its no better than the gearbox in my (now sold) IS-F.

[aware]

The transmission was taken from the Lexus flagship luxury sedan (the LS460) and modified to suit the sporty nature of the IS-F.

Too be honest I dont know why the 8 speed auto is such a hot topic, seeing the average buyer of the lower spec model Mk8 wont know or care, and most people on this forum will be buying the Mk8 in either GTI or R form which or course has the DSG.

FYI I have the ZF8 speed in my SQ5 and honestly its no better than the gearbox in my (now sold) IS-F.

Ok but that's still a different gearbox to that used in the Golf and other 4 cylinder transverse mounted engine vehicles - I'm not an engineer but one would assume there are some different characteristics.

Not everyone wants a GTI or R. I would love a GTI, but given I drive to a train station most days, or into a carpark in the city, it's a bit more performance than I ultimately need. Thus, the 'standard' Golfs are more relevant to me. Having watched the Chasing Cars review as well of the new Golf, where all I seem to hear was the constant changing of gears it puts me off the model. Sure, I'll test drive in due course, but from my perspective it's a backwards step.

That's great too. I have the ZF and find it better than the Aisin.

[VW Convert]

Again that will be a different gearbox given it's a sports V8, not a 4 cyl like a Golf or X1. When you research why these engines have the new 8AT, it has nothing to do with reliability.

These sweeping statements are hilarious - same sweeping statements from "car experts" when I bought my Octavia after a lemon Subaru. Subaru had 6 warranty claims (including paint bubbling amongst numerous electircal gremlins) in 18 months and 6,000kms. Conversely, 84,500km and 5 years later my Octavia has had 1 minor warranty claim (door lock)...

My point is that individual experiences with products are different for each person. You never read how happy someone is with a product on the internet, but you can always find a horror story (or 50).

Good luck to VW and Skoda with the 8AT. But my money will always go to a DSG or a ZF.

You're 100% correct, everybody's experience is different, some will always prefer a DSG over conventional auto and others vice versa, guess there is no right or wrong there, merely a matter of preference.

Automatic transmissions either direct shift or conventional will always require maintenance and/or repair. As someone who spent some years working for a major importer/reseller of auto transmission parts, the line that conventional autos don't fail is absolute rubbish, some do so with monotonous regularity. I find it interesting that Aisin automatics are being touted as the ant's pants, I can recall many horror stories about automatics in earlier generations of VWs, no points for guessing they were manufactured by Aisin.

I've been driving DSG equipped cars since 2006, never a problem and I much prefer driving a DSG to a conventional auto but as I said, it's a matter of personal preference.

[Lucas_R]

Ok but that's still a different gearbox to that used in the Golf and other 4 cylinder transverse mounted engine vehicles - I'm not an engineer but one would assume there are some different characteristics.

Not everyone wants a GTI or R. I would love a GTI, but given I drive to a train station most days, or into a carpark in the city, it's a bit more performance than I ultimately need. Thus, the 'standard' Golfs are more relevant to me. Having watched the Chasing Cars review as well of the new Golf, where all I seem to hear was the constant changing of gears it puts me off the model. Sure, I'll test drive in due course, but from my perspective it's a backwards step.

That's great too. I have the ZF and find it better than the Aisin.

Yes of course its a different transmission - but its the same manufacturer is what im trying to say. But what I will say is that with the 8 speeds in my IS-F and also the 8 speeds in my SQ5, its far too many gears for driving around town - even with the mountain of torque the SQ5 has. I drive the car in manual mode almost exclusively so that I can control what gear the car is in, and around town at 60-70kph I will be in 4th or 5th at the most. You only need to use 7th and 8th gear at motorway speeds.

But if left in normal D mode, the car will be in 7th gear at 60kph and doing about 1,200rpm. Not only is the car unresponsive at these RPM, but any need to accelerate results in a lengthy delay and then the gearbox shifts down about 4 gears and you go off like a rocket.

You're 100% correct, everybody's experience is different, some will always prefer a DSG over conventional auto and others vice versa, guess there is no right or wrong there, merely a matter of preference.

Automatic transmissions either direct shift or conventional will always require maintenance and/or repair. As someone who spent some years working for a major importer/reseller of auto transmission parts, the line that conventional autos don't fail is absolute rubbish, some do so with monotonous regularity. I find it interesting that Aisin automatics are being touted as the ant's pants, I can recall many horror stories about automatics in earlier generations of VWs, no points for guessing they were manufactured by Aisin.

I've been driving DSG equipped cars since 2006, never a problem and I much prefer driving a DSG to a conventional auto but as I said, it's a matter of personal preference.

Yes the transmissions in the Mk4 and Mk5 Golfs don't exactly have a great reputation for reliability, but in their defence, they are 15 or so years old now, probably never had a service - and from most of the stories i've read on here, only a solenoid is needed so not an expensive or lengthy repair.

Now lets not talk about transmissions in Holden Cruze's and Craptiva's.

[Sydneykid]

My concern with the TC auto in MK8's is not for me but for the replacement for my wife's Mk7. She has had DSG equipped cars for 20 years and I'm not sure that she will accept the backwards steps in performance and fuel economy. Trust me, she will definitely notice both of those. Coupled with the lack of leather and heated seats, I really don't see a MK8 on her side of the garage.

Cheers
Gary