Stutter / Judder on Acceleration

[Newkidintown]

2010 VW Golf GTI.
APR gear.
100,000 km

This car has run perfectly until now.
Forum's are full with this issue, however offer ever conceivable fix you can think of.
Difficult to determine fault & fix.

PROBLEM:
Stuttering during acceleration.
Normal when idle.
Worse when cold.
When warm, still stutters.
Drivable. Just really, really annoying.
Can't feel any loss of power.

When accelerating using the Cruise Control, the engine light flickers on when stuttering.
Does not do this when accelerating using the pedal - when stuttering.
This seems unique?

Also, the fuel consumption readings seems jumpy - with 3 Litre fluctuations driving consistent speed/conditions. I don't recall it doing this before.

1st opinion:
VW dealer mechanic could not replicate the issue, so unable to fix. Could see the Engine Light coming on though.

2nd opinion:
VW Specialist mechanic has some idea's:
- Fit APR Flap Delete and retune.
- Remove carbon build up on Intake Manifold and Intake Valves. $$$$
- Needs a new Turbo Boost Valve as not working (NOT the problem though).

Just wondering if anyone has exactly my problem and what was the fix.

Signed frustrated and tired.

[Snail Style]

Sounds like just a misfire, possibly an injector or may be worth checking plugs/coils. Find a better mechanic who knows how to diagnose it correctly, or wait until i relocate to perth next year and leave it in the garage until then!

[Newkidintown]

Thanks Snail.
Hahahaa Hopefully this will be fixed by then - fingers crossed.

Injectors were cleaned at last service as I noticed it back then - 6 months ago. No change.
Also, at the same time they had a misfire error in the log so swapped the coils. No change. swapped them back.
Got the old: 'can't held, go see APR; so went to APR installer for 2nd opinion. Seems very knowledgeable.

Just don't want to spend money without it being diagnosed as the issue. You know....

Reading the forums, seems I'll just need to Chase the fault and do it.

Thanks again.

[The One]

Thanks Snail.
Hahahaa Hopefully this will be fixed by then - fingers crossed.

Injectors were cleaned at last service as I noticed it back then - 6 months ago. No change.
Also, at the same time they had a misfire error in the log so swapped the coils. No change. swapped them back.
Got the old: 'can't held, go see APR; so went to APR installer for 2nd opinion. Seems very knowledgeable.

Just don't want to spend money without it being diagnosed as the issue. You know....

Reading the forums, seems I'll just need to Chase the fault and do it.

Thanks again.

Carbon build up seems very plausable. You can either remove the manifold and clean the valves/intake ports that way (very through) but expensive.

Or remove the breath that goes into the manifold, spray some of the subaru upper cylinder cleaner into it and rev the nuts off your engine for awhile (be prepared to clear the CEL that will come on due to missfires) - cheaper but not as effective option.

[Reedy]

Seems I may have a similar issue, only happens for me though between 1000rpms and 1600rpms and at very light throttle, as soon as I put the boot in its perfect. Definitely worse when cold and hardly noticeable when warmed up. I'm leaning towards throttle body but not sure and have no way of testing. Please keep us informed.


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[Snail Style]

Throttle won't cause a misfire on a single cylinder(or one at all). You need to identify which cylinder is missing, then do the coil and plug move around as they have done to confirm it doesn't move. Following that you will need to test the high pressure system for fuel leak down, injectors sticking open aren't uncommon and tend to give part throttle misfires.

It's about 150k+ on a motor that has never been carbon cleaned before you need to start looking at that as a cause of misfires. Wouldn't rule it out but from my experience it is unlikely.

[Reedy]

No misfires at all, these stutters for me just feel like little misfires or hesitations. Car idles fine when cold and warm, it's just off idle where it stutters.


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[Newkidintown]

That's exactly what the VW Specialist Mechanic did - he wasn't convinced on the spray either.
The strutter / judder / hesitation continues.

I'll start driving it in sports more to "blow out the cobwebs'.
For a fast car, I do drive it a little pedestrian like.
Thanks for your thought - seems I'm on the right track.

I think I'll continue with the Carbon Removal.
Maybe replace the plugs and coils at the next service (injectors already done).

Thanks for your input. Appreciated.

[Newkidintown]

Hi Reedy.

Sound toooooooo familiar.
Appears it is the same problem as mine.

Q. APR Carbonio Intake REMOVED. Did you remove it. Can I ask why.
I've seen they have a suspect pipe connector - this could be sucking fresh air? May cause a problem like we are having? I'm no mechanic!

Your car sounds fast.

[Lucas_R]

A guy with a modified MK6 GTI on another forum recently had similar hesitation issues as mentioned in the first post. His car has also done a similar amount of km's and is the same age. Turned out, after lots of diagnosing and swapping parts etc that the high pressure fuel pump (HPFP) was faulty and needed to be replaced. Problem fixed now.

The HPFP is not a common issue on this engine, but it happens. See here for more info: M4RK0's MK6 Kraftwerk GTI - Page 96

[Newkidintown]

Found this gem in a different forum.
Pretty much in line with my driving habits.
My manifold has quite a bit of oil in it, which would definitely contribute to carbon build up.


Copy of of the entry below - enjoy.

Carbon Buildup 101

---

As more and more cars start to flirt with higher mileage, a higher number of members are encountering carbon buildup. Though carbon buildup is nothing new and older members are well versed in it, it may be of interest to newer members and those buying used vehicles with mileage in the mid 5 figures and beyond.

So what is carbon buildup?

Carbon buildup is just what it sounds like. It is a buildup of carbon material on the top of your intake valves (between).

What causes carbon buildup?

To understand what causes carbon buildup, you first need to understand how our engines work. At its most basic, an engine burns two things: oxygen and fuel. In our case that fuel can either be gasoline or diesel. So, an appropriate mixture of fuel and oxygen are needed in the combustion chamber to explode when the spark plug ignites. In the old days, oxygen and fuel were mixed in the carburetor and passed to the engine over the intake valve. In more recent times, a fuel injector sprayed a fine mist of fuel into the intake port. From there the air/fuel mixture passed over the intake valve into the combustion chamber. This was called port injection (you still see this advertised on older GM cars). Port injection was a huge leap forward in terms of both power and fuel economy. You could much more finely control the mixture, and dynamically control the mixture based on what the various sensors were communicating to the ECU. Though they were very different, both had something in common - fuel passed over the intake valves. This is important and we will come back to that point later.

A relatively recent way to mix fuel and air is called direct injection. Just as port injection is exactly what it sounds like (injection of fuel into the intake port), direct injection is just what it sounds like. It is the injection of fuel DIRECTLY into the combustion chamber. Just like port injection was a step up in both power and efficiency, direct injection is even a bigger leap forward. Both the GTI and the TDI are direct injected. As fuel is injected DIRECTLY into the combustion chamber, it does not pass over the intake valves.

Ok Bender, hurry it up man...

Sorry, I am getting to it, but this is all important for you to be aware of if you want a comprehensive view of the issue. So, now you know the various options for how fuel and air get into the intake chamber, but you still don't know where the carbon comes from. Once the air and fuel mix and are combusted, there is extreme high pressure in the combustion chamber, forcing the piston to move. Most of the exhaust gases go out through the exhaust valve, but some tiny amounts of exhaust (which contains burnt and unburnt carbons) were actually forced past the piston and piston seals into the crankcase. This is called blow-by. This builds up pressure in the crankcase that must be relieved. Back in the early 20th century the would simply vent the crankcase right to the atmosphere. Because this was terrible for the environment and resulted in oil buildup... everywhere... GM invented the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) system (side note - GM was such a believer in PCV tech they gave it away to other manufactures FOR FREE). The PCV recirculates these crankcase gases into the intake manifold, where they mix with incoming air for re-combustion. This makes lots of sense as it has minimal impact on performance and it results in huge environmental improvements.

So the PCV takes your blow-by gases out of the crankcase and dumps them back into the intake manifold. Back in the old days, this was no big deal. They would be mixed with fuel and off they would go to do it all over again. Now, since the fuel never enters the intake port, they don't mix with fuel. Instead, they start to congregate, and settle, and build up. This is the source of carbon buildup.

Makes sense. What if I used a catch can rather than a PCV?

For a long time, it was generally accepted that catch cans were the solution by many (myself included) on this board. Long term testing proved they had no impact on carbon buildup.

What can I do?

When applying for its patents on direct injection, Audi noted the potential issue and recommended keeping the engine above 3000 rpms, for over 20 minutes, on a regular basis (Carbon Build-up at 26K Miles - Page 5 - VW GTI MKVI Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVI Forum / VW GTI Forum - Golfmk6.com). I would say that I am the perfect test case for this and can confirm that it works. I did need carbon cleaning, but it was not until 91,000 miles, when many are facing it at 50,000. Drive the car hard, use good oil and good fuel (note, neither has been proved to have an impact, but it won't hurt), and don't worry about it. Its a major maintenance item, but not one to fear.

[Reedy]

Stutter / Judder on Acceleration

Hi Reedy.

Sound toooooooo familiar.
Appears it is the same problem as mine.

Q. APR Carbonio Intake REMOVED. Did you remove it. Can I ask why.
I've seen they have a suspect pipe connector - this could be sucking fresh air? May cause a problem like we are having? I'm no mechanic!

Your car sounds fast.

Hey mate, I removed the intake due to what seemed to be a fuel trim issue when I tuned the car with Superchips Bluefin. It would hesitate as soon as I hit boost at around 2400rpm. I put the stock box back on and it was perfect. I run the BSH intake now with no issues..... Except for this low rpm/light throttle stumble.

Carbon build is a possibility but I had a new intake manifold fit and I still had it but not sure how bad the valves were. I thought carbon build up would cause misfires when cold, I have no misfires when cold and it idles perfect, it's just when I add a little throttle it starts to stumble and then I go passed 1500rpm it's smooth as. I cleaned my throttle body but it wasn't dirty at all when I took it off. So it's either the car doesn't like rpms from 1000 to 1500rpm or it doesn't like the throttle position at these rpms.

Good luck everyone.


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[Newkidintown]

Hi all.

So, after the dealership mechanics at the service department could not diagnose the problem, I sought assistance from the APR fitter / Mechanic.

After having the car for a few hours, he diagnosed carbon build up.

He told me he had seen another GTI which behaved in the same manner, and it was that.
He also said he has seen cars very similar to mine (model/age/km) without the carbon build up, so you can understand my scepticism.
The forums didn't make me particularly confident either.

My driving habits are slow and steady, rarely at high rev's.
I need to drive it in sports more often, and get it over 3,000 rpm more regularly.

These engines are direct injected, with this inherent problem.
The fuel is not 'washing' the valves on the way through.

With some oil floating around in the intake manifold, I concluded that all the above would definitely contribute to carbon build up.

Anyway, picked up the red terror today from the mechanic and it is running perfect - just like it was when I bought it.
So smooth. No judder. No stutter.

Mechanic advised:
- Definitely carbon build up.
- estimate 30% reduction due to the build up.
- cleaned with solvent / pick / brush / vacuum. Lots of hours / labour $$$$.
- Also replaced my BOV (unrelated).

I'll post again in a few weeks with an update.

At least tonight - very happy I've fixed my problem car - I hope.

Hope this helps someone else....