New Golf Rs and GTIs will have updated software that can disable ESP completely

[ethosguy]

mate the topic of ABS was already closed by post #35 in this thread. but you seem to have put a lot of effort into that post, so i trust it makes you feel better - good for you!



i'm wondering what VW are envisaging by forcing the ESP back on if you dab the brakes whilst sliding. i think they're just assuming that people will hit the brakes when they panic and that they don't know what they're doing - but what if an enthusiastic R driver flicks his R into a left-hand corner, gets some angle on it, tries to adjust with the throttle and then dabs the brake? if ESP cuts in, it'll flick him violently back to straight ahead, and if he still has the wheel turned right from the slide then i can't see that ending nicely

finally...some who gets ít'...

[ethosguy]

But that's completely missing the point of ESP. In most cases it is not designed to be a driver aid for track use. It is designed to assist a driver who has lost control, most likely in a completely unexpected situation, eg. someone running out on the road, another vehicle crossing into your path and requiring evasive action etc.

I think people forget that other people use the road too, and while that happens, it doesn't matter how mad you think your skillz are you can never rule out the unexpected.

That'd be skills, mate...
The inference was what is the loss (in a quantified time measurement) of control taken by ESP from the driver who knows how to deliberibatly and preemptively unsettle the car to ensure it is dynamically balanced when and how will be needed for the next thing.

ESP CAN ONLY REACT TO THE NOW. AI has a long way to go.

A bunch of you guys would do well to buy a cheap gravel rally car and go learn car contol. Then run a season or two to learn to use car control to go fast. Your view of ESP, as is sold to us on consumer cars, will be forever altered.
And please, don't go flaming me about on the road and normal people...I've been there, at length, earlier. Were talking about a particular constrained user group with heightened sensibilities.

[mfl]

That'd be skills, mate...
The inference was what is the loss (in a quantified time measurement) of control taken by ESP from the driver who knows how to deliberibatly and preemptively unsettle the car to ensure it is dynamically balanced when and how will be needed for the next thing..

very well said,
I believe on the newer Ferraris and other high performance cars (eg BMW M3)the ESP and electronic diffs settings can be altered to allow for track use when required. It would be have been good to see this kind of variable ESP settings on the GTI and R models.

[ethosguy]

very well said,
I believe on the newer Ferraris and other high performance cars (eg BMW M3)the ESP and electronic diffs settings can be altered to allow for track use when required. It would be have been good to see this kind of variable ESP settings on the GTI and R models.

A Golf R is a stretch right now...dammed mortage...maybe if I gave up dirtbikes I'd have more coin for cars but the opportunity and cost to run them as hard as I ca on the bikes is exponantial...

[Lima]

That'd be skills, mate...
The inference was what is the loss (in a quantified time measurement) of control taken by ESP from the driver who knows how to deliberibatly and preemptively unsettle the car to ensure it is dynamically balanced when and how will be needed for the next thing.

ESP CAN ONLY REACT TO THE NOW. AI has a long way to go.

A bunch of you guys would do well to buy a cheap gravel rally car and go learn car contol. Then run a season or two to learn to use car control to go fast. Your view of ESP, as is sold to us on consumer cars, will be forever altered.
And please, don't go flaming me about on the road and normal people...I've been there, at length, earlier. Were talking about a particular constrained user group with heightened sensibilities.

I learnt to drive on the dirt roads outside Yass in an HG Premier with 3 on the tree. As soon as I got my Ps my weekends were about throwing that thing around on loose surfaces. I had a lot of fun in that car. I also had around 15 years experience before having a car with traction control or DSC (as it was called on my MINI). I don't think I'm all that by any means, but I've had plenty of time driving without electronic driver aids.

The point is, public roads are not really the best place to be telling yourself what a hero you are. But, I guess it's about personal responsibilty and if one chooses to turn off ESP and the like and it goes tits up well that's fair enough I guess.

I've had DSC save me from a stack in the MINI when I got a bit too clever for my own good and I'd just feel a bit daft if I turned off ESP on a public road and binned it. I don't mind a decent punt out on twistys, but if I want to seriously push the limits and truly test myself then I'll go to the track for that.

Maybe I'm just becoming an old fart, but out on the twisties the possibilty of having a motorbike coming in the opposite direction leaning over the centre line into my lane is very real, so I think it prudent to leave a couple of tenths up my sleeve. For me, that includes leaving ESP on.

[dave_r]

Can't believe the soapbox stuff in here about ESP being the ultimate road safety failsafe. How much bloody nannying do some of you need. ESP, Radar Cruise Control and all that junk. Just bring in the automated/robot cars and do away with the driver completely ffs. The reality is that ****heads are still going to get themselves into sticky situations in the wrong places with or without ESP.

[DreamensioN]

Ok...so..... back on topic.

ESP = Off will be available in GTi's and R's from May 2011 onwards. Does anybody know if it can be retrofitted/flashed/coded/firmwared into exisiting GTi's and R's?

Reason I ask is that I would love to have ESP off for some all-wheel drift action on a skidpan, but I'm expecting a delivery date of June for my Golf R, which means it'll be manufactured, when? March? April? etc - so I might just miss out.

[hooba]

ESP = Off will be available in GTi's and R's from May 2011 onwards.

I'm interested in where did you get your information from and can it be verified?

[MIRSAD]

Google translation from German website:

"New ESP? Yes, because as of model year 2012 can be in the Golf and Scirocco R disable the ESP. For this, the ESP button pressed in order to prevent misuse. New and interesting is that the ESP in the background continues to monitor the driving conditions. If the driver in critical driving conditions the brake engages, and the system stabilizes the vehicle. As soon as the race car is back on the right track, can be further drifted to their heart's content."


Full article:

Google Translate

[DreamensioN]

I'm interested in where did you get your information from and can it be verified?

Post #16 of this thread

[Guy_H]

Awesome!

Just got my new MY12 Golf GTI DSG today (thanks George @ Northstar VW).

I can switch the traction control completely off - 2 stage - ASR First then ESC - AWESOME

Its a build date June 11 - what an extra bonus!

[Majalo]

I pick my MY12 GTi DSG up tomorrow. Can't wait!!!

What are the advantages of having the 2 stage option?

[Guy_H]

Pinched from another forum:

More details (links above go to the info shown below)
New ESP-OFF for sporty driving
Designed to give the enthusiastic driver a choice in the level of automatic braking assistance on their car, from build week 22, a revised set-up of Volkswagen’s Electronic Stabilisation Programme (ESP) will be standard on Golf R, GTI and GTD models, and all Scirocco models.

This has been introduced by the Factory in response to feedback from owners who think Volkswagen’s current safety systems take the edge off driver enjoyment in, for example, track use or highly sporty driving.

In normal use, all braking assistance systems work as before, ensuring safety within the usual limits and it would be virtually impossible to deactivate the systems accidentally.

However, in the appropriate conditions, the driver is now able to select the level of braking intervention in stages.

At the first level, by pressing the ESP button, ASR (traction control) is switched off. By pushing and holding the button again (approx 3 secs), drivers can reach the second level which shows ‘ESP OFF’. In this mode, drivers can oversteer or understeer without ESP interference, allowing so-called drifting. In this mode, if the driver actively brakes in what the car detects to be on the limits of safety, ESP is automatically reactivated and supports the driver in keeping control of the car. Afterwards, the ESP is automatically deactivated again; it is reset and switched on each time the ignition is started. It should be noted that the ABS function remains unaffected by ESP-OFF.

For more information, see the following press articles which talk about the system in action.

- Volkswagen Golf R DSG | First Drives | Car Reviews | Auto Express
- VW R models' new ESP system - Autocar.co.uk

This new feature is standard – and this should be a positive selling point to prospective buyers of high performance vehicles. However it should be stressed that it poses no diminution of active safety features when used in standard mode.

XDS – electronic differential lock
An electronic cross-axle traction control system for improved traction and handling. Technically speaking, XDS is a functional extension of the electronic limited slip differential (EDL) which is a part of the standard ESP system.

Its benefits are experienced when driving quickly through a bend. ESP sensors provide information on lateral G-forces, while ABS sensors monitor levels of friction. Using this information a control unit can predict when an inside wheel is about to lift and apply a braking force automatically to increase traction on the opposite front wheel. XDS differs from EDL, however, as it brakes the inner wheel before it loses traction rather than afterwards. The result is smoother, more sure-footed and safer progress with better traction through fast corners when on the limit of adhesion.

XDS also compensates for the understeer which is typical of front-wheel drive cars. Thanks to XDS, the GTI’s driving characteristics are significantly more precise and neutral, and this reduction in understeer delivers greater driving enjoyment.

[SilvrFoxX]

What are the advantages of having the 2 stage option?

Bragging rights

[Candyman]

Bragging rights

You pre-MY12 R owners are just so jealous



I can't see myself ever using the function actually. I'm no race car driver .....