New Golf Rs and GTIs will have updated software that can disable ESP completely

[Lima]

Still, it'd be interesting to see the comparitive lap times between ESP less on and a bit more less on (sic) of a quality steerer...to see how the complaints of ''interference non-adjustable in corner attitude'' register in time.

But that's completely missing the point of ESP. In most cases it is not designed to be a driver aid for track use. It is designed to assist a driver who has lost control, most likely in a completely unexpected situation, eg. someone running out on the road, another vehicle crossing into your path and requiring evasive action etc.

I think people forget that other people use the road too, and while that happens, it doesn't matter how mad you think your skillz are you can never rule out the unexpected.

[chylld]

If you're already sliding sideways with high G forces, then dabbing the brakes will almost certainly put you into a spin as the weight transfer will unload the rear before static friction is resumed.

I was thinking more left-foot braking, enough to slow the wheels down a bit (just to adjust your line) but not enough to flick the car in the opposite direction (as if you came off the throttle while drifting an FR)

There's also the risk of not noticing that ESP has come back on, so say you somehow get through the first corner and then you try to flick your car into the next corner at speed - and the ESP gives you a bucketload of understeer... ??

[Lima]

This is the quote from the Autocar article:

The system will only cut back in should the driver press the brake pedal in the middle of an ‘emergency’, be it if control of the vehicle is lost by the driver or if they want the car to straighten up by itself. If the brake pedal is not depressed by the driver the ESP system will remain inactive.

It sounds like the same system employed on the MY10 S3s and beyond (it may have been introduced on MY09 models come to think of it). Here's the page from my manual:


(apologies the focus isn't great)

[Lima]

I was thinking more left-foot braking, enough to slow the wheels down a bit (just to adjust your line) but not enough to flick the car in the opposite direction (as if you came off the throttle while drifting an FR)

That's interesting actually. Our cars have a system that allows minimal "left-foot braking" scenarios. That is, you cannot apply the brake and accelerator for any more than 1 or 2 seconds. If you do the ECU will cut engine power until you take your foot off the brake. I doubt this aspect would be affected if the ESP has been switched off. If I remember I'll try it out on the S3.

[kaanage]

This is the quote from the Autocar article: middle of an ‘emergency’

But how does the system decide if it is an emergency?

[chylld]

That's interesting actually. Our cars have a system that allows minimal "left-foot braking" scenarios. That is, you cannot apply the brake and accelerator for any more than 1 or 2 seconds. If you do the ECU will cut engine power until you take your foot off the brake. I doubt this aspect would be affected if the ESP has been switched off. If I remember I'll try it out on the S3.

I remember reading about this trait in an Audi review many years back - guess it makes sense for it to be prevalent in a golf too. Probably because 1) the engineers never believed any of the advantages of left-foot braking, and 2) to help drivers who panic in an emergency stop and hit all the pedals trying to brace themselves

But how does the system decide if it is an emergency?

I'd think it would be when the steering input doesn't agree with the car's direction of travel - i.e. the same conditions for ESP to activate normally...

[kaanage]

It could be smart enough to consider the yaw rate as well as the direction of travel vs front wheels.
Who wants to test ?

[adzy]

Erm, isn't that the a perfect moment for ESP do its thing, ie. to hep try and correct an unexpected situation?

You're right inasmuch as ESP cannot cover all scenarios and it is not a means to defeating the laws of physics, but if you think you can react more quickly and more effectively than a well sorted ESP unit can, well, you're vastly overestimating your abilities, haha.

Just explain to me how you can personally brake four wheels individually and I'll start to pay opinions like this some respect.

Yes it would be a perfect scenario for ESP to step in IF loss of traction causing a spin or terminal understeer was the result of this lack of concentration. Will not stop you from plowing into that oncomming car or tree though.
When did I claim to react quicker and more effectively than ESP champ??? If I was driving home in a storm/flood then I would leave my ESP switched on and I would also take care and be on full alert, does that satisfy your BS claim?
And if you want me to explain how I can brake 4 individual wheels your just being a smart ass so I would much prefer some one of your mentality does not respect my comment.

[Corey_R]

It's probably smarter than we think.
The ESP is using all the available systems:
ABS
TCS
EBD
EBC
EDL/XDS

We already know that the ABS these days measures the wheels individually and can adjust the braking rates of individual wheels (EDL/XDS, EBD and TPMS all use that information). Even by the late 90's the ESP systems already had Longitudinal and Lateral acceleration sensors, yaw rate sensors, steering angle sensors and wheel sensors.

I unfortunately don't have a ESP Self Study guide that relates to the MKV or MK6 - but I know from the self study guide on Dynamic Chassis Control that in addition to the ESP stuff I mentioned above, they are also using accelerometers on the body, and sensors on the suspension, all measured 1000 times per second, to then determine how much adjustment the hydraulic valves in the dampers need to keep the car level and stable etc (based on the "Comfort, Normal and Sport" profiles that the driver selects). So it would not surprise me at all if the modern ESP also had access to that information (i.e. what the "body" is doing in relation to the wheels and suspension) and also made decisions based on that. It would not surprise me at all if some of those sensors (or even separate dedicated accelerometers) were in use on all Golf's regardless of whether DCC was optioned.

Has anyone got a recent VAG ESP document?

[Lima]

So, you've admitted you wouldn't by the car because it didn't have switchable ESP:

This is the best news I have heard in regards to the Golf R, it is now back to top spot of my next car to purchase list. I could not 100% justify purchasing a performance car which will not allow ME to drive it.

...then ended the quote by saying previously the R would now allow you to drive it. Pretty easy step to take for me to conclude that you think you're better than the ESP, don't you think.

Lighten up girlfriend, it's Friday.

[adzy]

So, you've admitted you wouldn't by the car because it didn't have switchable ESP:



...then ended the quote by saying previously the R would now allow you to drive it. Pretty easy step to take for me to conclude that you think you're better than the ESP, don't you think.

Lighten up girlfriend, it's Friday.

You are missing one important word, switchable. I am not against ESP just non switchable ESP. I leave my Esp on most of the time but when I
set out on a track day or a sunday run through some twistys I want to be given the option to switch off the fun police.. Thought I was clear on that... Um sister.
Now buy me a beer

[WhiteJames]

Polish F1 ace Robert Kubica -v- Electronic Stability Control?

This season won't be the same without Kubica - Anything goes

Any thoughts?
Cheers
WJ

[Lima]

You are missing one important word, switchable. I am not against ESP just non switchable ESP. I leave my Esp on most of the time but when I
set out on a track day or a sunday run through some twistys I want to be given the option to switch off the fun police.. Thought I was clear on that... Um sister.
Now buy me a beer

Fair enough. How about a shandy?

[hooba]

Kubica was competing in a motorsport event, to suggest that his injuries could have been avoided with ESP on his competition car (with its full roll cage) is akin to suggesting that MotoGP should run with training wheels on the bikes for driver safety.

The risk of injury through an accident is what you sign up for when competing in the top echelons of the sport.

[Corey_R]

Sorry... what does that have to do with ESP?