New Golf Rs and GTIs will have updated software that can disable ESP completely

[Corey_R]

Guys, don't get me wrong, there is a damn good reason we have ABS! It's because we aren't all race drivers and road conditions aren't always optimal (gravel, dirt and water on the asphalt, and that's assuming the road itself is fine). Maybe I should have clarified that in my above statement.

But if conditions are optimal, ABS does not reduce braking distance. This isn't my opinion, it's that of Bosch etc.
Your comments are only reinforcing my comments about ESP.
Conditions are rarely ever completely in the drivers "control". ESP, like ABS, is a good way forward.

If we were having this discussion 15 years ago - everyone would be anti-ABS and using the same arguments they are now for the disablement of ESP...

[chylld]

if conditions are optimal, ABS does not reduce braking distance

sounds like we will have to agree to disagree

have you personally tested an ABS-equipped car against a non-ABS-equipped-but-otherwise-identical car in the same environment, on the same day , within 5 minutes of one another? i've experienced this first hand on both dry and wet tarmac and i and a few unfortunate witches hats can attest to the fact that ABS does stop a car quicker in a straight line.

back on topic though, i'm glad to hear that ESP will be fully switchable for the R. my 125i bogs too easily turning out of side streets into small gaps in traffic. even turning ESP half-off doesn't help much, i have to turn it all off and just be very awake otherwise i end up facing the direction i came from

[MiiLos]

i've experienced this first hand on both dry and wet tarmac and i and a few unfortunate witches hats can attest to the fact that ABS does stop a car quicker in a straight line.

+1 did this test when i got my AAMI car insurance to get 10% off the premium. got to try braking under ABS and without, car definatelly stops in a much shorter distance in an ABS equipped car.

sligtly off topic but the AAMI guys were shocked how well my 05' TDI (with 18's and sports springs) handled the corners and braking, amongst other things. - outperformed all the other cars on the day (no other VW's were present) - i did have a slight grin on my face the whole of that day lol!

[kaanage]

I agree with Corey here. On a dry, smooth, level road, with the driver controlling the brakes very, very well, in a straught line, stopping distances will be less without ABS. Remove ANY of the provisos and an ABS equipped car will stop more quickly.

This was demoed at an advanced driving course that I did where the same car (BMW, I think) was brake tested with the ABS enabled and then disabled.

Oh, and I forgot to mention conditions where the fastest stopping is acheived by locking the wheels and letting a wedge of road surface material build up ahead of the wheel (gravel, sand, deep snow). ABS will extend stopping distances in these cases which is why most German market versions of cars allow the ABS to be switched off.

[chylld]

I agree with Corey here. On a dry, smooth, level road, with the driver controlling the brakes very, very well, in a straught line, stopping distances will be less without ABS. Remove ANY of the provisos and an ABS equipped car will stop more quickly.

This was demoed at an advanced driving course that I did where the same car (BMW, I think) was brake tested with the ABS enabled and then disabled.

Thanks for this, first-hand experience is always better than heresay

So if ALL of the following conditions are met:
- highly-skilled driver paying full attention
- perfect threshold braking (i.e. not locking the wheels up)
- dry, smooth, level road
- straight line
the stopping distance will be shorter than with ABS.

So for most people in most cars in most conditions, ABS will stop the car faster.

[kaanage]

Absolutely.

[Corey_R]

sounds like we will have to agree to disagree

have you personally tested an ABS-equipped car against a non-ABS-equipped-but-otherwise-identical car

No mate, but I would assume the people making the ABS systems would know better than anyone else, and if they state that it doesn't decrease braking distances in optimal conditions, I'm not going to argue against that and tell them they're wrong!

ABS, like ESP is created for the majority of the time when conditions aren't optimal. In any case, it was a short comment and not the topic of this thread - other than highlighting the fact that these things really shouldn't be disabled


Edit: And I kept on reading and found kaanage has listed some of the reasons why. Cheers.

[adzy]

This is the best news I have heard in regards to the Golf R, it is now back to top spot of my next car to purchase list. I could not 100% justify purchasing a performance car which will not allow ME to drive it.

It is funny how so many people seem to believe that every single road fatality can or would have been stopped with bloody ESP. If any of you have ever been involved with the investigations of road fatalities you would see that the LARGE majority would not have been avoided with ESP or even 25 airbags.
The most common cause is basically a split second lack of concentration and an object going from 80 km/h to 0 km/h in a tenth of a second, not speed or any of the other rubbish we see rammed into our brains to justify the lack of effort put in by the authorities.
I myself have been in situations before where I have reacted to the cars movement or yaw angle to find that the ESP has jumped in and done the same thing; resulting in an overcorrection which has put me into danger. I am sure it has saved the odd incident for someone somewhere but I believe some of us get a little to excited about it, ever hear some one say "The ESP saved our lives!" ahhh no.
I am not against ESP but I am against non switchable ESP, personally

PS: Welcome back Golf R

[chylld]

No mate, but I would assume the people making the ABS systems would know better than anyone else, and if they state that it doesn't decrease braking distances in optimal conditions, I'm not going to argue against that and tell them they're wrong!

ABS, like ESP is created for the majority of the time when conditions aren't optimal. In any case, it was a short comment and not the topic of this thread - other than highlighting the fact that these things really shouldn't be disabled

As I said, we will have to agree to disagree first-hand experience vs heresay is not much of an argument anyway.

Regardless of whether ESP is fully off or not, ABS will remain on, so it is quite the moot point. I'm confident the R has enough mechanical traction to pull out of sideroads with the ESP off, so it's a welcome change and about time!

The big question remains - can this feature be implemented on existing Mk6 GTIs and Rs??

[Ideo]

On second thoughts, I'd still prefer switchable ESP.

Why should we also have to protect the lowest common denominator?

pay attention when driving, drive to the conditions or face the consequences.

All mandatory ESP does is reinforce an inexperienced drivers feeling of invulnerability.

[ethosguy]

MY12 models only built from May 2011 onwards:

VW R models' new ESP system - Autocar.co.uk

Cheers
WJ

...so even the new off isn't really off...use the brakes during a 'slide'' and 'they reactivate the ESP.

When is off actually ooooooooooffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff? You know, until I turn it back ooooooooonnnnnnnnn....

Granted almost always (not always though) if you are going for the brakes in a mid corner slide then youré going round for a spin. Brakes will accelerate the gyration rotataion.

False alarm?

I must be getting old 'cos all this new age looking after people legal sue your corporate arse paranoia BS really gets under my skin. Too bad I can't afford a proper modern car like a 458...ah wait a moment, flappy paddle S/W gearbox only...OK Porsche GT2 or 3 then.

Still, it'd be interesting to see the comparitive lap times between ESP less on and a bit more less on (sic) of a quality steerer...to see how the complaints of ''interference non-adjustable in corner attitude'' register in time.

[Corey_R]

As I said, we will have to agree to disagree first-hand experience vs heresay is not much of an argument anyway.

You can disagree with me and the inventors of ABS if you would like, but lets clear this up, it is NOT my opinion or heresay, it is fact.

What I like about this is this really is something that is easily proven.
First, a quote straight from Bosch' website (Just in case you don't know, they invented it, and their system is still used by the majority of ABS systems, including in our VW's):

“ABS substantially improves driving stability and usually shortens the brake path as well,” says Wolfgang Drees, member of the management board at Robert Bosch GmbH and head of its Chassis Systems division.

There is also this extensive study by RACV which draws on their on investigation and numerous other studies and tests.

It shows that on a dry good condition ashpalt, ABS does not decrease or "will not substantially reduce stopping distances in dry conditions". It should be obvious why, your tyres and brakes are only as good as they are, software can't make them better. "However, in wet slippery conditions, ABS is very effective in reducing stopping distances". "A locked wheel may provide higher deceleration than ABS on surfaces such as gravel and snow that allow a build up of material in front of a sliding wheel". ABS increases gravel stops "by an average by 27%".

"In almost all manoeuvres vehicle stability was superior when ABS was operation".

And that final quote is why we have ABS in all our cars. So please don't resort to making claims like "heresay" just because you don't agree with the experts who've produced these extensive studies, or the inventors who are still the leading manufacturers of the product!


So now that the topic of ABS is undeniably closed, you may all continue on with the topic of ESP

[chylld]

mate the topic of ABS was already closed by post #35 in this thread. but you seem to have put a lot of effort into that post, so i trust it makes you feel better - good for you!

...so even the new off isn't really off...use the brakes during a 'slide'' and 'they reactivate the ESP.

i'm wondering what VW are envisaging by forcing the ESP back on if you dab the brakes whilst sliding. i think they're just assuming that people will hit the brakes when they panic and that they don't know what they're doing - but what if an enthusiastic R driver flicks his R into a left-hand corner, gets some angle on it, tries to adjust with the throttle and then dabs the brake? if ESP cuts in, it'll flick him violently back to straight ahead, and if he still has the wheel turned right from the slide then i can't see that ending nicely

[kaanage]

You can disagree with me ....

I thought that chylld had already agreed to all that (well he/she, didn't comment on the gravel/snow thing) in his/her subsequent post replying to mine.

i'm wondering what VW are envisaging by forcing the ESP back on if you dab the brakes whilst sliding. i think they're just assuming that people will hit the brakes when they panic and that they don't know what they're doing - but what if an enthusiastic R driver flicks his R into a left-hand corner, gets some angle on it, tries to adjust with the throttle and then dabs the brake?

If you're already sliding sideways with high G forces, then dabbing the brakes will almost certainly put you into a spin as the weight transfer will unload the rear before static friction is resumed.

[Lima]

...The most common cause is basically a split second lack of concentration...

Erm, isn't that the a perfect moment for ESP do its thing, ie. to hep try and correct an unexpected situation?

You're right inasmuch as ESP cannot cover all scenarios and it is not a means to defeating the laws of physics, but if you think you can react more quickly and more effectively than a well sorted ESP unit can, well, you're vastly overestimating your abilities, haha.

Just explain to me how you can personally brake four wheels individually and I'll start to pay opinions like this some respect.