New Golf Rs and GTIs will have updated software that can disable ESP completely

[WhiteJames]

MY12 models only built from May 2011 onwards:

VW R models' new ESP system - Autocar.co.uk

Cheers
WJ

[REXman]

Definitely a fan of ESP off. Next service update please!!

I tried coming in hard round a bend on my mates track, and just as it starts to get a slide... RROOOOUUUUGGGGH... And your not sliding Amy more.. Meh..

[ethosguy]

Personally I don't believe that we should be able to turn off ESP on the roads. I like the idea that Nissan have with the GTR, where it only allows you to disable it on race tracks. However, given their poor implementation of it (and the fact that it doesn't recognise any of the racetracks here), I'd be happy if it were a case of "allows you to disable it when you're not on a road".

This would of course mean that you had to buy the Sat-Nav option... but tough [/QUOTE]

Does anyone have a link to the actual requirements document for ESP?
Is it only mandatory in VIC at this stage, or have other states also followed?


Personally I don't believe that we should be able to turn off ESP on the roads. I like the idea that Nissan have with the GTR, where it only allows you to disable it on race tracks. However, given their poor implementation of it (and the fact that it doesn't recognise any of the racetracks here), I'd be happy if it were a case of "allows you to disable it when you're not on a road".

This would of course mean that you had to buy the Sat-Nav option... but tough

...even better than the 3 door babyseat opinion IMO...$$$ can't buy this stuff. Surely this is baiting to generate discussion...lol. Like a good moderator would...

Biggest criticism, it seems, of the GTR is the lack of driver involvement. Who do you want driving your car. I for one don't want the software engineers and polititians driving mine. Maybe trains are a better option than this dangerous stuff...like using your own judgment?

Be careful what you wish for...my crystal ball sees speeding tickets by GPS (used in Dakar Rally already), maybe speed limiters by GPS , especially if a car nut (reputed) can advocate non-switchable ESP.

This press release is THE BEST news re: Golf R / GTi; full stop. IMO.

Any one paying attention know F1 has proven traction control, ABS and other driver aids can produce better lap times. Traction control is even how an issue in AMA Supercross - ban it, allow it???

Moto GP is all about electronics and S/W.

So who is really doing the driving, drivers or techos?

They took it from F1 amidts cries of 'Danger , danger Will Robinson', undriveable in the wet...nancy puffs!
Guess what, good drives can do it, not so good ones can't. Good.

I bet Rossi would be happy to see the end of rider aids so he can get on and bag a few more titles before he calls it quits.

However, some years back 'say '05, I've watched a perfectly sound, less than 3yr old Passat run two wheels off the tarmac onto ths dirt, over correct, slew across 2 lanes of a divided highway and slam into an armco; almost straight road, mid-day, clear dry conditions under the 110kph limit.
Incompetent driver??? Probably had a bit of driver doze...Emerged apparently unharmed. Shaken but alive.

Plenty of cars this would have been fatal. With ESP, the over correction would have been contained. The dozey cow would have not crashed, possibly killing / maming herself or others. I'd anticipated her crash before she had and given room for her to have her own acco. If I hadn't ,she'd bounced into me... with first born less than 1yr old inside.

I've watched others 'drivers' slide off a perfectly decent patch of road on other occasions. Go figure?
Do we keep adding and adding to protect the stupid / incompetent from themselves?
YES!
She, the dozey, not much of a driver, cow in other respects might just be a perfect person, someones loved one???

My 2 yr old ABS isn't as good at stopping on loose surfaces as non ABS. I don't agree ABS shortens stopping distances on dirt. A skidding wheel on dirt provides THE best retardation. Steering is not possible at the same time and well, that is why we have ABS.

AFAIK WRC doesn't ban ABS but it isn't used by preference so drivers can control their car.

I hate ABS most of the time I'm driving: How it eases away the brakes when I want something particular to control the car but quite like knowing the majority of other cars have it for 'that' moment.

Most people can't control a car...they go along in it. Everything else is more important than the most important task at hand, tunes included!

I've owned cars that were legal but were, let's say, so demanding to drive I wouldn't let typical drivers use on a wet road. These were my favourites to drive.

I practise my car (and bike too) control when I won't cause harm to others...and use those skills to prevent others from harm(ing me).

Social responsibility, respect, personal restraint, non-intoxicated (any perception degrading / confidence enhancing drug), co-ordination , keen judgement, attention and observation are the best safety 'devices'. But these are seemingly a rare suite of atributes. Just to finish off my rant, speed isn't the road safety problem, bad judgment is.

Non disengable or lordy forbid, GPS ESP control is just far too much Big Brother.

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[Corey_R]

hehe - I like your 'Edit reason'.

But yeah - you're right. ABS does not reduce stopping distances. All it does is allow us to still be able to steer, thus hopefully able to avoid an accident in the middle of a "Panic".

[WhiteJames]

Steve Sutcliffe's 2 cents on ESP

Autocar's Steve Sutcliffe's 2 cents worth on de-activating ESP:

To ESP or not to ESP? - Tester

Cheers
WJ

[AusBob]

Have a look at Tiff Needel's test drive of the Golf R - the ESP kicking in nearly causes him to crash.

Despite all the technology safety advances, people are still crashing and dying in cars. I think people rely too much on these systems. It's okay I have ESP, ABS, Sat Nav, 21 Airbags I don't have to look at the road!

Get rid of all these bloated systems adding weight to our cars and make driving courses compulsory like for bikes.

I heard that 1% of the population has the mental capacity for piloting a plane and 30% have it for driving a car, however with 99% of people driving... perhaps we need more stringent testing?

I also heard the 90% of statistics are made up ; )

[woofy]

I'll have to check but I'm pretty sure skodas have had the two stage ESP shutoff for a few years. I know my 2008 rs has a two stage shutoff but maybe the skid aspect is still enabled. I would have thought they should be identical to the gti setup in that respect.

[STV4SYT]

If it's saving people from themselves as the end goal then maybe all Camry's should be sold with a device that restricts them to walking pace only.

[Corey_R]

Autocar's Steve Sutcliffe's 2 cents worth on de-activating ESP:

To ESP or not to ESP? - Tester

Cheers
WJ

Thanks for the article WhiteJames.

[triode12]

If it's saving people from themselves as the end goal then maybe all Camry's should be sold with a device that restricts them to walking pace only.

ROFLOL!

[Lima]

ESP can be a hinderance in my current car.

In particular, getting onto Military Road at Neutral Bay at around 7pm from the Caltex service station.

Accelerate hard because you need to due to small gaps, hit the bus lane paint, ESP gets triggered, and suddenly you are crawling out into traffic. ESP off and there is no hint of wheel spin or loss of control. Just another electronic device.

I get what you're saying, and I know on most cars now ESP is all encompassing, but remember ESP is basically a combination of ABS and TC (traction control). In the situation you mention it's really only the TC that's causing the grief, and I agree it can be a right PITA.

Not a problem in the S3 with quattro, of course, but my old MINI would sometimes bog down really badly on 1st-2nd gear changes.

Ideally you would have a system where you could switch off the TC, but leave the magic ESP braking component where all wheel can be braked individually. Either that or we need four brake pedals, haha.

I agree with most of the other stuff you're saying too.

[Lima]

Have a look at Tiff Needel's test drive of the Golf R - the ESP kicking in nearly causes him to crash.

Despite all the technology safety advances, people are still crashing and dying in cars. I think people rely too much on these systems. It's okay I have ESP, ABS, Sat Nav, 21 Airbags I don't have to look at the road!

Get rid of all these bloated systems adding weight to our cars and make driving courses compulsory like for bikes.

I heard that 1% of the population has the mental capacity for piloting a plane and 30% have it for driving a car, however with 99% of people driving... perhaps we need more stringent testing?

I also heard the 90% of statistics are made up ; )

And what percentage of people can measure steering inputs and see the car is sliding out of control and then brake all four wheels individually, as required and with varying pressure if need be, to attempt and correct that slide moments before realising they need to do so?

I agree with what you're saying for the most part about driver education and so on, but it shouldn't be forgotten that ESP does things that simply aren't humanly possible.

If you haven't already, I highly recommend going to a skid pan day and seeing for yourself just how effective these systems are.

[Lima]

In that case it probably won't make a difference to me at all.

I hate the ESP in my car because it intervenes so much and when it is not needed. Usually at times you really don't need it. if the new system gets rid of that then I probably won't have as much of an issue and I'm probably just ranting and raving like an old man confounded by new fangled technology for no good reason

Oops, I just realised you have an 8L S3. Well, it sounds like things have greatly improved on Audi's ESP system because in my car, try as I might I couldn't get any wheel spin at all on the skid pan when ESP was on, haha.

When it was off, though...

[pologti18t]

hehe - I like your 'Edit reason'.

But yeah - you're right. ABS does not reduce stopping distances. All it does is allow us to still be able to steer, thus hopefully able to avoid an accident in the middle of a "Panic".

You really believe that? How about wet roads? snow/ice? two wheels on gravel/two wheels on bitumin.
Unless you are highly skilled stopping distances will be shorter in an ABS equipped model (usually incorporating brake assist) than the non-ABS equipped model.

People can bring up the old chestnuts of stopping on fresh snow (hardly an issue here) or gravel. But modern ABS will cope adequately with either and in the case of gravel you wont follow the camber of the road down into a culvert etc.

[chylld]

But yeah - you're right. ABS does not reduce stopping distances. All it does is allow us to still be able to steer, thus hopefully able to avoid an accident in the middle of a "Panic".

Incorrect. At a driver training event I did a few years back, we tested braking in a non-ABS Astra and an ABS-equipped Astra. Without ABS, the car flew straight through the cones, whereas with ABS we all stopped just short of them.

The best braking performance is realised when the wheels are turning slightly slower than the road speed. Professional racing drivers can achieve this but not with all 4 wheels as it's impossible to control 4 brakes independently with only one pedal. ABS will get near this performance but with all 4 wheels at the same time.