The Indicator Stalk Thread

[Syd118TSI]

A little disappointing that you didn't respond to my questions, but that says it all really.

Deadly serious in a forum where there is a healthy discussion regarding something that people have differing opinions on seems a little excessive, but do what you will.

In my personal experience it's not a big concern as the Golf is DSG. If it was manual I would have more issues with it.

I'd have to say that I largely agree with Mountainman's opinion and can understand his frustrations.

[Corey_R]

And that's fine mate, having an opinion about which side you like it on is fine. But as I said, no one has come up with any studies or research or even a quote which says what the most ergonomic indicator design or position or what the manufacturers motives are.

People don't need to provide "proof" or their personal opinions, but if we took the example of another thread, if someone made claim that a particular car could do 0 to 100 in 2 seconds, everyone would ask for reference or dismiss their comments. If they kept on arguing about the 2 second claim without providing any proof, then a moderator would step in.

As for your last question in bold that you are disappointed I didn't answer, I've already shared my opinion on that and others have agreed with me, and many have disagreed, so I didn't think it was necessary to say it again.

[Tony_Mitchell_1983]

Keep your comments about personal experience, or if you are going to make claims about ergonomics of manufacturers motives, provide references. This is the final warning before this thread is closed.

My personal experience is that this thread is dumb. I claim VW are cheapskates for not switching over the indicators and the ergonomics (and for that matter the aesthetics) of the golf are TERRIBLE. I also claim I completely disagree with my previous claims. I also reference nothing and base this on BS. Everyone here are also poopy heads. Pleae close this thread NOW!

[ConR]

My personal experience is that this thread is dumb. I claim VW are cheapskates for not switching over the indicators and the ergonomics (and for that matter the aesthetics) of the golf are TERRIBLE. I also claim I completely disagree with my previous claims. I also reference nothing and base this on BS. Everyone here are also poopy heads. Pleae close this thread NOW!

+1. Can you actually close this thread coreying?

For the record, I don't have a poopy head.

[slipshot]

Could you answer this question - Why do you think VW (and other European cars) have not changed the side that the indicator is on for our market, despite the majority of cars in our market being the other way round?

I'll answer your question. To my mind, simply because they do not have to. If ADR said they had to be on the right hand side, they would of course change it. As ADR does not stipulate which side the indicators have to be on, they do not bother to change it from the UK spec market which requires them to be on the left. An additional cost that would be passed on to the consumer.

Given the majority of ADR's replicate European (and UK when rhd specific) design rules, it makes life easier for the manufacturer to ship rhd cars in the same spec they hit other rhd markets...

[mfl]

I also reference nothing and base this on BS.

What is the BS you need proof on.

1. That cars designed in countries with LHD have their indicators on the left hand side of the steering column.
2. That car designed in Japan and Australia (rhd countries), for example have their indicators on the right hand side of the steering wheel and when they export to lhd countries, they swap the position of the indicators.
3. The reason British cars now have theirs on the left as well is that it was agreed as an ISO standard across Europe as part of the harmonisation of EU safety standards.
4. There is no ADR requiring the location of the indicator stalk and therefore European car manufacturers aren't going to spend any money doing it because there is insufficient customer demand.

and yes it makes no difference if your drive a DSG or an Auto and yes it it only takes an extra 1/2 sec maybe, to indicate and change gear (I can provide data to back that claim up if you like, and it does actually vary on your age).

and why threatened to close the thread, if no-one is interested or cares, then the thread dies anyway.

and for reference, the new ISO Standard for Europe:
ISO 12214:2010, Road vehicles – Direction-of-motion stereotypes for automotive hand controls, gives design recommendations for the operating motions of hand controls and a method of verifying whether they meet driver expectations, or "stereotypes". It will improve usability for all automotive users by designing hand controls that conform to driver needs and, in so doing, enhance driving comfort and convenience.

[pologti18t]

As ADR does not stipulate which side the indicators have to be on, they do not bother to change it from the UK spec market which requires them to be on the left. An additional cost that would be passed on to the consumer.

Are you sure about that. What about Japanese cars sold in the UK. Or even the HSVs we sell over there.

I still remember the days when european cars sold here did indeed have the indicators on the right. At some stage that ADR (or whatever) was relaxed.

[Syd118TSI]

I'll answer your question. To my mind, simply because they do not have to. If ADR said they had to be on the right hand side, they would of course change it. As ADR does not stipulate which side the indicators have to be on, they do not bother to change it from the UK spec market which requires them to be on the left. An additional cost that would be passed on to the consumer.

That is of course the right answer - because it would cost them money, time, and effort to change them over and they don't have to, so they don't. It's then down to interpretation as to whether you determine that to be 'cheap'.

Given that it's an established norm for European cars over here I don't think it will ever change. In fact some people probably see it as a sign of prestige. It will alienate and/or annoy certain segments of the market but I guess none of them deem it significant enough to worry about. Oddly enough in our market (unlike in Europe) I'd say the majority of European cars here would be sold with automatic or DSG equivalent transmissions, so the potential* indicator stalk incovenience becomes much less of a cause for concern amongst owners.

* - That's for you Coreying BTW I don't have any statistical evidence regardng the proportion of Auto equiv to manual sales of European cars here versus Europe, so I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that front if I am in fact mistaken.

[Tony_Mitchell_1983]

Was that response actually directed at me since you're quoting me? If so, you are one of the poopy heads I previously refered to.

and why threatened to close the thread, if no-one is interested or cares, then the thread dies anyway.

It should be closed as it's the breeding ground of stupidity. If anyone does care it' a bit sad. Left, Right? Seriously... It doesn't matter. If you're indicating and changing gears at the same time, you're doing it wrong! You can't drive! Buy a bus pass.

I just feel like starting to chant 'fight, fight, fight...' It's the only reason I'm watching this thread.

[ConR]

I'm going to create another thread that discusses how all head units should have the volume knob on the right hand side, as it's more ergonomic. It doesn't make any sense for it to be on the left side of the unit. It feels uncomfortable having to reach all the way to the far side of the unit just to adjust the volume.

Yeah...to me, that's just as valid a comment as this whole retarded indicator thread.

Is there an emoticon for sarcasm?

[Tony_Mitchell_1983]

I'm going to create another thread that discusses how all head units should have the volume knob on the right hand side, as it's more ergonomic. It doesn't make any sense for it to be on the left side of the unit. It feels uncomfortable having to reach all the way to the far side of the unit just to adjust the volume.

Yeah...to me, that's just as valid a comment as this whole retarded indicator thread.

If you do that, you should be banned for life!!! Don't encourage them!!! (the poopy heads)

[Guy_H]

My Uncle had a Volvo, he had it for 15 years - in all that time he never managed to find the indicator stalk, let alone use it. From this thread, now I understand why He's probably one of those that gives European Car drivers (Volvo Drivers) a bad name?

[Corey_R]

Well, I'm not sure of the recent statistics of manual vs DSG, but I know that even in the highest performance MKV Golf, the R32, 82% of them were DSG*1. I believe the % of auto's is even higher the majority of their passenger models. VGA are constantly talking in the press about how introductions of models in Australia are delayed by back-and-forth arguments about auto availability in models*2. For example, VGA have long wanted an automatic BlueMotion and the lack of one was a prime reason (apart from Australian being a "hot" country) for it not coming to Australia. Now a compromise has occured and the BlueMotion is coming in manual only, but there will be a "BlueMotion Pack" so it can be applied to the models available in Auto*3.

So you are correct in your comments that "potential indicator stalk inconvenience"*4 only affect manual drivers which are by far the minority. In addition, in none of the numerous "Manual vs DSG" threads has anyone ever mentiond the Indicator placement as a factor*5. So it is quite possible that even within manual drivers, those affected are also a minority.

A minority of a minority!



*1 World's fastest Golf blasts into Australia
*2 VW's 4Motion commercials reach local market
*3 Volkswagen 2011 Golf BlueMotion - First Drive: True BlueMotion Golf Oz-bound | GoAuto
*4 http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f112...tml#post566550
*5 http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f112...ead-48457.html plus many more which are now in the graveyard since people couldn't be nice to each other.

[Syd118TSI]

I'm going to create another thread that discusses how all head units should have the volume knob on the right hand side, as it's more ergonomic. It doesn't make any sense for it to be on the left side of the unit. It feels uncomfortable having to reach all the way to the far side of the unit just to adjust the volume.

Ahh, but you can control the volume with the steering wheel volume controls on the left hand side of the steering wheel, meaning that you can change the volume on the stereo whilst indicating! Now that's ergonomics!

[ConR]

Ahh, but you can control the volume with the steering wheel volume controls on the left hand side of the steering wheel, meaning that you can change the volume on the stereo whilst indicating! Now that's ergonomics!

Ya but I prefer to not use the steering wheel controls. I personally don't find then very ergonomic. And that's my opinion.

Or maybe the steering wheel controls are broken..meaning I have to reach ALL the way over to the left...it's just such a nuissance you know...

And here's another stat. 80% of the time, I find this thread to be useless every time.