The Indicator Stalk Thread

[Syd118TSI]

Well then fine. I think all Australian/Asian manufacturers should change their indicators to the left so it matches the American and European cars. That way you won't have to swap between different sides, as that is one of the many downsides of owning an Australian/Asian car

This doesn't make any sense. The Golf (and all VWs) were designed to have the indicator stalk on the opposite side to the gear stick/shifter. The same is true of Japanese cars. It has nothing to do with which hand is used to indicate and everything to do with simple ergonomics. Just because you feel it doesn't disadvantage you, it doesn't mean it's right. If it actually was deemed by Volkswagen to be preferential to have the indiactor and gear stick on the same side then European models would have the stalk on the right hand side.

I personally don't have a problem with it, but can see how it could be seen as an inconvenience. If your thoughts are that it should be on the same side as the gear stick then you're openly suggesting that the designers got it wrong. That's all well and good as you're entitled to your opinion but it means that you're amongst a minescule minority that think that way. The indicator being on the left hand side in RHD vehicles is nothing more than a cost saving exercise whatever way you try to spin it.

[Corey_R]

Um yeah... read my previous post about what ergonomics means and about stating that it's just cheap. Please provide evidence or keep those comments to yourself.


As for my opinion, you are completely mistaken. I don't think that having it on the left hand side "does not disadvantage me", I think that it IS an advantage for the reasons I have said 500 times before.

[Rob Burns]

I prefer the indicator on the left but it's more to do with my circumstances. I drive a VW, my brother has a VW, my Dad has a Porsche and I work on VWs for a living. I also lived in Canada for 8 years and the indicators are always on the left there. The only time I drive a car with the indicator on the right is my Mum's Corolla and I get it wrong every time.

The thing that does bother me though is having the ignition switch on the right. In Canada it's on the right too but that's towards the inside of the car where as here it's to the outside. As a former work mate of mine found out, it's very easy for someone to walk past the car when you have the window down and take the key out of the ignition.

I guess I'll give credit to SAAB for putting the ignition switch in the centre console. They're still crap cars though.

[hazrd]

interesting read

honestly i dont really care what side the stalk is on, i just accept (like a few in here) that every car is different. ive come from a calibra, so im used to the stalk being on the left!

Although, my missus has an AH SRi Astra so i do get pretty confused from time to time, getting out of my GTi and into the missus car i always joke with her telling her that the indicators are on the incorrect side of her car, just to stir the pot

[Idle]

interesting read



Although, my missus has an AH SRi Astra so i do get pretty confused from time to time, getting out of my GTi and into the missus car

Exactly — and there are occasions when it takes but a moment's confusion...

[Syd118TSI]

Um yeah... read my previous post about what ergonomics means and about stating that it's just cheap. Please provide evidence or keep those comments to yourself.


As for my opinion, you are completely mistaken. I don't think that having it on the left hand side "does not disadvantage me", I think that it IS an advantage for the reasons I have said 500 times before.

...and so according to your opinion the designers got it wrong and European VWs should have the indicator stalk on the right hand side. Nothing at all wrong with that, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Your attempted semantics argument in relation to ergonomics is ridiculous, particularly when you're the one turning it towards semantics and away from the obvious and simple point others have made by suggesting that it isn't ergonomic.

Ergonomics does not necessarily mean creating something to be infinitely adjustable to all shapes and sizes, if it did the definition would be along those lines. The very definitions you've quoted don't comply with your own, so I don't see why you've quoted them as supporting evidence. I, on the other hand, can do just that.

[i]er·go·nom·ics
n.
1. (used with a sing. verb) The applied science of equipment design, as for the workplace, intended to maximize productivity by reducing operator fatigue and discomfort. Also called biotechnology, human engineering, human factors engineering.
2. (used with a pl. verb) Design factors, as for the workplace, intended to maximize productivity by minimizing operator fatigue and discomfort: The ergonomics of the new office were felt to be optimal. [i]

"VW design their cars so that the indicator stalk is on the opposite side to the gear stick for improved ergonomics" is correct use of the word ergonomics.

As for "cheap", there are several sources that suggest leaving the indicator stalk on the left hand side in RHD vehicles is entirely a exercise in cost savings. Cost savings at the expense of design, could easily be conceived and summariesd as "cheap".

Whether or not you feel you're advantaged ultimately only matters to you, so if VWs prioritisation of cost over design works in your favour then great, but you have to be able to appreciate that it's not going to be the case for many people.

As I've said before it doesn't particularly bother me, but I can see why people would consider it illogical placement that would be more noticeable in a manual vehicle.

You can easily change gears, have your hand on the steering wheel and indicate in a vehicle with an indicator stalk on the right hand side. You can't comfortably do the same in a vehicle with the indicator stalk on the left hand side.

That's putting it as simple as possible and doesn't use any of your naughty words.

[mfl]

Um yeah... read my previous post about what ergonomics means and about stating that it's just cheap. Please provide evidence or keep those comments to yourself.
.

Just to get it straight what do you want proof of:
- that it saves European car makers money by not swapping the indicators over or
- that it is not ergonomically correct that car manufacturers design their cars with the indicator stalks on the opposite side of the steering wheel from the gear shift ?

[Mountainman]

Um yeah... read my previous post about what ergonomics means and about stating that it's just cheap. Please provide evidence or keep those comments to yourself.


As for my opinion, you are completely mistaken. I don't think that having it on the left hand side "does not disadvantage me", I think that it IS an advantage for the reasons I have said 500 times before.

So you can have an opinion but unless we have evidence we can't?

Well, my opinion is that VW have been cheapskates for not putting the indicator stalk on the right side of Australian Golf steering wheels and the evidence is their set-up on lefthand drive Golfs. There they do it because it is ergonomic best practice and here it is not done because they can save money - in other words, do it cheaply. All I did originally was state an opinion , give a reason and point to the evidence thatbacks it up. It was not meant to be offensive to you or anyone else.

[rs73]

gosh the argument is still going on 7 pages long...

well my wife has Rav4 and my GTI indicator is on the left... yes I do get it wrong the first few times swapping golf and the RAV4 but after a while I just get used to it... I used this method:

If I'm in the GTI Golf... say it... goLLLf... = LEFT
If I'm in the RAV4.... say it... RRRRAV = RIGHT

easy for me now... didn't get it wrong... you just have to have the right mindset when driving and will have it sorted out easy.

[MIRSAD]

gosh the argument is still going on 7 pages long...

well my wife has Rav4 and my GTI indicator is on the left... yes I do get it wrong the first few times swapping golf and the RAV4 but after a while I just get used to it... I used this method:

If I'm in the GTI Golf... say it... goLLLf... = LEFT
If I'm in the RAV4.... say it... RRRRAV = RIGHT

easy for me now... didn't get it wrong... you just have to have the right mindset when driving and will have it sorted out easy.

Lucky that You are not driving Golf Rrrrrr =

[hazrd]

LOL

i could try that
"astrrrraaa" and "polllllllo"

[Mountainman]

Lucky that You are not driving Golf Rrrrrr =

Or a GTI........ I-I-I-I-I don't know where the indicators are...........lol

[Corey_R]

So you can have an opinion but unless we have evidence we can't?

What I'm saying is that you can have an opinion on which side you like the indicator stalk on and why. This is an opinion which relates to yourself and the only justification and proof required is your own.

But lets stop this BS on that just because you guys grew up driving cars with the indicator stalks on the right that this means having it on the left is not ergonomic or is just cheap. If you want to make accusations like this, then back it up with studies or references or quotes from the manufacturers.

If you guys can't differentiate the difference between these two things then I'll just close the thread so you don't have to...

[Syd118TSI]

But lets stop this BS on that just because you guys grew up driving cars with the indicator stalks on the right that this means having it on the left is not ergonomic or is just cheap. If you want to make accusations like this, then back it up with studies or references or quotes from the manufacturers.

If you guys can't differentiate the difference between these two things then I'll just close the thread so you don't have to...

Coreying, if the burden of truth lies with anyone it is you. The arguement from the other side is clearly supported by the design of VWs and the fact that for their primary markets the indicator stalk is on the opposite side to the gear stick.

Having it on the left in isolation isn't 'cheap'. Failing to move it to the most common side for the market in question as a cost-saving measure could be construed as being cheap.

Could you answer this question - Why do you think VW (and other European cars) have not changed the side that the indicator is on for our market, despite the majority of cars in our market being the other way round?

Next, are you disputing the following?

You can easily change gears, have your hand on the steering wheel and indicate in a RHD vehicle with an indicator stalk on the right hand side in the majority of road situations. You can't comfortably do the same in a RHD vehicle with the indicator stalk on the left.

[Corey_R]

Syd118TSI - There is no burden of proof on me. I have never made a claim that having it on the right hand side is bad, OR that having it on the left hand side is ergonomic.

I have only said that I prefer it on the left hand side and that it is an advantage for me especially since I'm driving a manual.
So all my comments are about my personal experience and not unsubstantiated claims such as "its only ergonomic on the right" or "it's only ergonomic on the opposite side from the gearshifter" or "it's only on x side because x manufacturers are cheap".

So I'm deadly serious. Keep your comments about personal experience, or if you are going to make claims about ergonomics of manufacturers motives, provide references. This is the final warning before this thread is closed.