Golf R Observations and Questions

[Ideo]

I personally feel that unless you wanted AWD for the sake of having AWD, that the Golf R as standard in Australia is a bad choice. It just doesn't have enough power and torque (especially where it's needed <2500rpm) to overcome the drive train losses and extra weight that AWD adds. Also the characteristics of the K04 gives less torque down low and more power up high compared to the K03. Already GTI Pirelli owners seem to be some of the most "mod happy" bunch - but put that K04 with the extra weight and well...

I love my Golf R. Don't get me wrong. But there is also no way I would've bought a Golf R if I weren't going to modify it. It just feels too slow and lethargic when standard.

You need to bear in mind that you are coming from a modified car background. And, correct me if I'm wrong, cars with hair dryers instead of a turbo

I still do not get the whole OMG EPIC LAG!!!111!!! comments. It struck me as much less laggy than most other turbo 2.0l with turbos bigger than a hairdryer. Have you tried a Focus XR5? Loads more laggy. Same with a WRX from 08. Same with an Astra VXR. Megane was a bit laggy.

One of the main comments from car magazines is how tractable and wide ranging the spread of torque is in the R. I'd agree with that. Hell of a lot better than my old S3 and a mates Liberty GT.

It's the same car as the current S3 and I don't hear any of them whingeing about this epic lag.

[Corey_R]

lol... I'm not sure where the delineation between a "hair dryer" and a turbo comes in, but yes, both previous cars were modified K03 cars. Whilst the K04 is externally (practically) identical, the internal differences push the "power band" higher. Whilst your comparisons are right, the R is much more drivable than them - when compared to the K03 Golf and Polo GTI's, the R falls on the wrong side of the argument. Unmodified, the R is breaking the law before "boost" comes on in 2nd in most situations.

But yeah, this is really starting to get into GTI vs R territory, when I really only wanted to comment to the questions of whether there is a need to modify the R.


Edit, btw, I should mention, for those who don't know, that my previous car was a 9N3 Polo GTI with the only modification being an APR Stage 1 ECU flash. The stock R felt so slow compared to it. Whilst the R would kill it from standing acceleration, the Polo would win in rolling acceleration. Keep in mind that the Polo GTI with an ECU flash has the same torque as a stock Australian R. And whilst the R has 36kw more, the Polo has 300kg less. My previous car before that was a Stage II MKV GTI. And as we already know from the numerous YouTube videos, a Stage I GTI will consistently beat a stock European R in rolling acceleration as well.

[Ideo]

Don't get me wrong. Mine is getting modded.

I just don't think it's that bad stock. Especially not in regards to lag.

But hey, most of it is down to how the individual who has the car feels.

[triode12]

You need to bear in mind that you are coming from a modified car background. And, correct me if I'm wrong, cars with hair dryers instead of a turbo

I still do not get the whole OMG EPIC LAG!!!111!!! comments. It struck me as much less laggy than most other turbo 2.0l with turbos bigger than a hairdryer. Have you tried a Focus XR5? Loads more laggy. Same with a WRX from 08. Same with an Astra VXR. Megane was a bit laggy.

One of the main comments from car magazines is how tractable and wide ranging the spread of torque is in the R. I'd agree with that. Hell of a lot better than my old S3 and a mates Liberty GT.

It's the same car as the current S3 and I don't hear any of them whingeing about this epic lag.

The "lag" criticism only comes up when GTI owners try to justify why their cars are a better buy/better car than the R is. Otherwise, like you have found, it is a red herring.

You want to know what lag is? Drive a stock Pirelli.

[Corey_R]

Yeah as I said... it's about making it more usable in "every day life". Have a drive of a Stage I GTI (either Polo or Golf) and you'll get what I mean. In every day usage, in speeds <60 or 80km etc, they respond a lot quicker than the R.

It's not as bad in the manual cars, because you're usually not in 6th at 55km/h like you are in the DSG... but still. You really cannot argue that the K04 is "less laggy" (if that's the terms you want to use) than the K03, as they're both so similar, but the K04 has specifically been engineered to move the powerband higher up in the revs... so it's engineered to be more "laggy" - yet provide more power up top. VW's specs, plus owners dyno figures support this. Awesome for race tracks and drag strips, even the traffic lights GP, but not as responsible for regular driving in traffic...

... until its modified


For reference:
GTI:
155kW @ 5300-6200rpm
280Nm @ 1700-5200rpm
R:
188kW @ 6000rpm
330Nm @ 2400-5200rpm

So even from VW's stats, there is an extra 800rpm of "lag" (completely eliminated by the use of S, or driving a manual and not shifting early).
And p.s. triode, go drive an unmodified R sometime, rather than the pre-chipped Singapore cars! hehe

[triode12]

Yeah as I said... it's about making it more usable in "every day life". Have a drive of a Stage I GTI (either Polo or Golf) and you'll get what I mean. In every day usage, in speeds <60 or 80km etc, they respond a lot quicker than the R.

It's not as bad in the manual cars, because you're usually not in 6th at 55km/h like you are in the DSG... but still. You really cannot argue that the K04 is "less laggy" (if that's the terms you want to use) than the K03, as they're both so similar, but the K04 has specifically been engineered to move the powerband higher up in the revs... so it's engineered to be more "laggy" - yet provide more power up top. VW's specs, plus owners dyno figures support this. Awesome for race tracks and drag strips, even the traffic lights GP, but not as responsible for regular driving in traffic...

... until its modified


For reference:
GTI:
155kW @ 5300-6200rpm
280Nm @ 1700-5200rpm
R:
188kW @ 6000rpm
330Nm @ 2400-5200rpm

So even from VW's stats, there is an extra 800rpm of "lag" (completely eliminated by the use of S, or driving a manual and not shifting early).
And p.s. triode, go drive an unmodified R sometime, rather than the pre-chipped Singapore cars! hehe

Corey - I have done so - many times.
Yes the local R stock has lag but it is minimal and doesn't really distract from the driving experience (esp compared to my Pirelli in stock and drive).(see I can criticise something I own - are some MkVI fanbois even capable of criticising a car they currently own or accepting criticism of the car they own from others? I really doubt it)


Having said that, the R would benefit from a Stg 1 tune.

[Corey_R]

Having said that, the R would benefit from a Stg 1 tune.

And we come back around to my original comment. Yes, the R does benefit from a Stage 1 tune... any reputable vendors tune!

Just make sure you use a vendor who has an upgrade path to support the better hardware when you decide Stage 1 isn't enough! hehe

[poli84]

I personally feel that unless you wanted AWD for the sake of having AWD, that the Golf R as standard in Australia is a bad choice. It just doesn't have enough power and torque (especially where it's needed <2500rpm) to overcome the drive train losses and extra weight that AWD adds. Also the characteristics of the K04 gives less torque down low and more power up high compared to the K03. Already GTI Pirelli owners seem to be some of the most "mod happy" bunch - but put that K04 with the extra weight and well...

I love my Golf R. Don't get me wrong. But there is also no way I would've bought a Golf R if I weren't going to modify it. It just feels too slow and lethargic when standard.

Corey, I agree with you 100% on this topic.

My old A3 2.0T DSG (same as MKV GTI as you all know) felt quicker than my S3 (again same as your Golf Rs as you all know).
The S3 just doesn't excite me like I thought it would.
The A3's smaller K03 felt much quicker from a stand still and gave me much more of a rush than my S3 ever has (from stand still).
The mid-high range in the S3 is obviously much, much better though. It just keeps pulling and pulling.
I've always felt a bit underwhelmed by the standard performance.

I ran a Revo trial tune and to be honest, wasn't all that impressed with just a flash. Still didn't excite me like my A3 ever did.
Perhaps it was the whole sensation of the front wheels spinning and the effortless DSG changes.
I'm sure my S3 being a manual also takes away the rapid sensation of take off.

Will be going straight to Revo 2+ in a couple of months (just collecting parts at the moment).
I'm hoping (based on experiences in other stage 2+ S3s) that my underwhelmed feelings will be removed.

I love my S3 (just as you all love your Rs) but i do feel it's lacking what I was after.

[Corey_R]

Thanks poli84.

I agree with the ECU flash comments as well. The ECU flash only on the R feels like it makes much less of a difference than the ECU flash only on the GTI. Again, I don't put it down to any one thing. I really is the combination of the K04, AWD and weight.

I love my S3 (just as you all love your Rs) but i do feel it's lacking what I was after.

I'm sure you'll love it after the Stage 2+

[Prodigy]

I'm sure it has been covered before but couldn't find exactly what i was after so i'll ask anyways.

When exactly does the flap in the R's exhaust open and shut? I was under the impression once warmed up the flap was shut at idle to keep the noise levels down and opened under acceleration. Every time i've checked mine while in P the flap always seems to be open. People have also mentioned having one pipe dirtier than the other, i have never had that.

[SilvrFoxX]

Well I have to say I don't get all the lag chatter.. really it has to come down to peoples previous experience and expectations.. I found the R to be both excellent in traffic and open road.. if the rumour is true that it only gets better with use I am a happy camper

[zbeasty]

I'm sure it has been covered before but couldn't find exactly what i was after so i'll ask anyways.

When exactly does the flap in the R's exhaust open and shut? I was under the impression once warmed up the flap was shut at idle to keep the noise levels down and opened under acceleration. Every time i've checked mine while in P the flap always seems to be open. People have also mentioned having one pipe dirtier than the other, i have never had that.

I believe it only closes between certain revs (2000 to 3500 rpm?) on steady or light throttle as that is where the drive by noise test is done. Should be open the rest of the time or if you are up it for the rent.

[zbeasty]

Well I have to say I don't get all the lag chatter.. really it has to come down to peoples previous experience and expectations.. I found the R to be both excellent in traffic and open road.. if the rumour is true that it only gets better with use I am a happy camper

I came out of a 1.6l Ford Fiesta so definitely didn't notice any lag. First couple of months I was loving the power increase over the Fiesta but I did get used to it after a while and it was starting to get a bit boring. Then I got the DP and tune and woohoo, never going back.

[dave_r]

I don't get the lag thing (and had an XR6T prior) nor do I understand why the car is pointless unless you modify it. Opinions are like arseholes and a lot of people probably think the car is more than quick enough as is.

Anyway, hit the track yesterday at Sandown along with Fab and Adzy. Love the car even more, it really is a jack of all trades which is exactly why I bought it! Morning started with damp track, dried out after a few hours and then raining in the arvo. ACC was in sport for dry and normal for rain, DSG left in sport mode and TC remained on. Probably only twice in the rain where I felt the TC/DSC intrude but probably for my own good. Never had any real inclination to play with the paddles even. It changed gears at the right time, never mid corner or anything to unsettle the car which meant I could focus on getting my lines right and learning the track.

Ended up doing around 60 laps or nearly 200km's, car didn't miss a beat. I had ****loads of fun, actually more so in the rain where you had to be so much more precise with your lines and corner entry/exit. But really only backed off the speed by about 10%, the car really has a heap of grip.

For the numbers people.... used 70L of fuel including getting to/from the track (~60kms) so the ave consumption for the day was 27L/100km. I reckon that's pretty bloody good given how hard it was being driven. Oil temps were around 114 by the end of the session.

I'd like to get a few things done before I go back out there. Sway bars and Unibrace across the hatch area. Maybe some brake pads/fluid though with the 20min sessions we had, the stockers held up very well.

Oh and anyone who thinks you need to have AWD with any form of power or even wet road needs to talk to Adzy. If it was the case, nobody told him! His Mk5 GTI got around Sandown well enough. He definitely had to work harder for it compared to Fab and myself in the R's but was damn quick.

[Corey_R]

Yeah - I guess it does really depend on where you come from. Many of you guys are coming from big heavy cars anyway.

I have been avoiding using the word "lag" because I don't like it. The best way I describe it would be, the stock R feels too heavy and lethargic compared to the lighter more agile cars I've come from (Polo GTI, Golf GTI).


Sounds like an AWESOME day you had there dave_r. Don't forget to do your oil change now! It's important after a track day I'm told.
The Unibrace across the hatch seems like a cool idea - except for the fact you have to drill holes into the car, and also for the fact that it then somewhere defeats the purpose of having a hatchback, because it renders the seat folding useless. Have you considered the Unibrace UB (Underbody). I know they don't do exactly the same thing, more compliment each other, but the UB would be a good first step without ruining the hatch quality or requiring drilling... (unless you have no need for carting anything which won't fit in the boot).