Golf R Observations and Questions

[bcm]

Is there any explicit documentation from VW that mentions the ECU "learning" people's driving patterns and using that to change the way it behaves?

Happy for someone like Guy to pipe up and tell me that there is, but I'd be surprised. My understanding/experience of how engine management systems work is that the ECU contains a number of reference tables for things like fueling, timing, boost control, variable valve timing, temperature corrections etc. There can be multiple versions of the same table that are triggered by certain events, but they all contain fixed values for each load/rpm point (as an example). So the only way your driving affects how the car behaves is by providing the ECU inputs for it to look up against the reference tables so that it can then provide the appropriate fuel/timing etc. It's not learning anything.

Even with a DSG equipped car I'd be surprised if whatever controller looks after that has the ability to "learn". I would strongly suspect that it simply looks up a series of reference tables that control how it shifts. The fact that it appears to have to be reprogrammed to change the shift points reinforces my suspicion. I guess Guy would have a better idea.

[BezzyR]

So far i'm sticking to the run in stage as indicated in the owners manual, however i am finding it more difficult each time i drive the thing. I've only used 'Sport' mode once and that was by accident..

I could not handle that process.. i've been driving in all modes all the time since getting it a week ago.. in fact had a stage 1 tune done today.. awesome.. enjoy your car man not the owners manual

[AdamD]

Even with a DSG equipped car I'd be surprised if whatever controller looks after that has the ability to "learn". I would strongly suspect that it simply looks up a series of reference tables that control how it shifts. The fact that it appears to have to be reprogrammed to change the shift points reinforces my suspicion. I guess Guy would have a better idea.

With respect to the DSG, I'm sure it has some notion of memory (even if it's only very short-term). If I drive aggressively and then decelerate (say halting at traffic lights, or turning a tight corner) and then take off gently, it will hold the first and second gears for quite a bit longer - right up to 3,000rpm or higher - almost without fail. This is despite not accelerating heavily or on an incline. I read that as the transmission having retrospectively considered me to (still) be in a rev-happy mood, and obliging by holding onto gears longer.

My guess is that the learning process is one whereby the car applies weightings as to which maps to prefer given several external (environmental, driver input) factors. IIRC, the GTI has in excess of 280 maps in a stock tune; the R may have more again. Presumably many of these are specifically designed for extreme temperatures and other mechanical states, but surely there's also some room in there for choosing one over another based on driving styles.

[dave_r]

I read that as the transmission having retrospectively considered me to (still) be in a rev-happy mood, and obliging by holding onto gears longer.

I get that feeling too sometimes but don't know a damn thing technically about how this magical DSG's do their work! I think I confused it on the way home tonight. Belted it into a right hander and it seemed to bounce off the limiter in 1st for a sec before going to 2nd. DSC was flashing its tits off as well so I think the whole car got a bit confused hehe

Oh and found this while looking at some other stuff (namely the DSG version of the TTRS making a DSG RS5 it's bitch!)
Google Translate

The translation is hard to read but some people might be interested. (Original link is VW Golf R: Tuning - autobild.de)

[MasterSTi]

Can anyone who has a new Golf R with either the 18" or 19" silver wheels please check on your vehicle ID sticker what the paint code is for the silver wheels?

Cheers

[bcm]

With respect to the DSG, I'm sure it has some notion of memory (even if it's only very short-term). If I drive aggressively and then decelerate (say halting at traffic lights, or turning a tight corner) and then take off gently, it will hold the first and second gears for quite a bit longer - right up to 3,000rpm or higher - almost without fail. This is despite not accelerating heavily or on an incline. I read that as the transmission having retrospectively considered me to (still) be in a rev-happy mood, and obliging by holding onto gears longer.

What you're describing isn't "learning" though. It would simply be you having met a set of conditions that have been coded into the DSG controller. ie the engineers being clever with their programming. It's not hard to imagine coming up with a condition that says if the TPS registers full throttle for greater than x secs hold gears longer until the TPS is below a certain threshold for x seconds. Again a set response to driver inputs. Not the computer exhibiting HAL like qualities.

My guess is that the learning process is one whereby the car applies weightings as to which maps to prefer given several external (environmental, driver input) factors. IIRC, the GTI has in excess of 280 maps in a stock tune; the R may have more again. Presumably many of these are specifically designed for extreme temperatures and other mechanical states, but surely there's also some room in there for choosing one over another based on driving styles.

I doubt that it works this way. I can't see the engineers changing things like engine mapping based on how you drive (apart from swapping between open and closed loop). It is much more likely that they will have setup the triggers for map changes on things like temperature, fuel quality (detonation) etc. All you're doing is controlling which data point the ECU chooses from the various tables with your right foot. And the 280 maps you mention are most likely not all maps, but more likely a small number of fuel/timing maps with a whole host of ancillary lookup tables that are used to adjust the fuelling, timing or boost. Things like cold start, boost control for different gears etc.

[Corey_R]

Can anyone who has a new Golf R with either the 18" or 19" silver wheels please check on your vehicle ID sticker what the paint code is for the silver wheels?

Cheers

I'm not sure there is a paint code for the wheels, though I'll check for you later when I'm near the car.
But since I'm at the computer, the Erwin Vehicle Specific Information for my car (with 18" Talladega's) simply lists the wheels as Pr code C6Z. There is no information about the wheels in the paint/colours section.

[HPSOV]

With 5000km on mine the only 'learning' I have noticed appears to be based on 1 or 2 minutes of driving at the most. If I go nuts in D it definitely holds gears longer, but after a minute or two or dull driving it is back to normal.

Also, and maybe others already know this. The minimum speed in gear is 2-15 3-25 4-35 5-45 6-55, with the exception that D uses 2nd from and down to crawling speed. D will always change into each gear at the minimum speed unless your foot is past a certain position on the accelerator, or you have been driving aggressively in the last minute or two.

[REXman]

APR have got a special on 1240.00 until Xmas. Thinking seriously, but am also learning that there are different tunes as Capercat has pointed out. Turbo is new to me, so should go slow.... trouble is want it now!!!! The wait for the Black was bad enough.

Give Vader a chance!

In agreeance with Silver, there are a few stages of power that the engine goes through as you get more KMs under your belt. Enjoy them, learn the car, then slap it with the APR tune. It's a win win I reckon.

I appreciate people who go and get it all done the month they buy it, would be a lot of fun. But I will keep this car for at least three years so I'm going to pace it and get all the different experiences out of it,

[dave_r]

Has anyone looked at aftermarket handling upgrades yet such as sway bars? Whiteline don't list anything for the MK6 let alone R so I'm guessing they'd need a volunteer/dev car up in Sydney?

Not sure how much adjustment the factory setup has in the way of toe/camber/castor and what gains could be had. Has anyone mucked around with this yet?

[Corey_R]

Guy_H had sway bars in his Stage 3 R - so I'd say that suitable product is available already. He also adjusted at least the camber. I believe that they increased the camber to improve the track handling but sacrificed a bit of standing acceleration performance. But as he replaced the suspension and all that, maybe that is all aftermarket stuff as well...

[Capercat]

Has anyone looked at aftermarket handling upgrades yet such as sway bars? Whiteline don't list anything for the MK6 let alone R so I'm guessing they'd need a volunteer/dev car up in Sydney?

2010 Volkswagen Golf VI R Applications || H&R Special Springs, LP

[Guy_H]

We used the H&R sway bar set, nice, off the shelf & different sizes available depending on your needs.

For suspension, we disconnected the ACC factory struts & used JIC Cross Japanese version coilovers, they have an integrated top mount that allows over 3 degrees on negative camber on the front. We also use our own version of a rear castor adjustment bush on the control arms.

We run the same setup on our GTI, but with APR sway bars on the FWD cars.



Some pics here:

APR - High Performance Development for Audi, VW and Porsche Vehicles.

APR - High Performance Development for Audi, VW and Porsche Vehicles.

[dave_r]

Guy_H had sway bars in his Stage 3 R - so I'd say that suitable product is available already. He also adjusted at least the camber. I believe that they increased the camber to improve the track handling but sacrificed a bit of standing acceleration performance. But as he replaced the suspension and all that, maybe that is all aftermarket stuff as well...

Yeah but he changed everything hehe so I'm not sure if there is any info on just minor changes to see if there was any worthwhile improvements. I'm happy to loose standing acceleration for overall improved handling but I'm not gonna be a track warrior. So just looking BFYB improvements on the street.

2010 Volkswagen Golf VI R Applications || H&R Special Springs, LP

Thanks, knew there would be products around. But have no idea what size is suitable. Will start with Volkspower in the new year and go from there. Don't feel like being a pioneer with this stuff!

We used the H&R sway bar set, nice, off the shelf & different sizes available depending on your needs.

Thanks for the info. Don't want to replace the factory struts or have overly agressive alignment settings which are gonna destroy the tyres.

[Guy_H]

Dave,

Select your sway bar configuration (different sizes) after you have decided on what springs / dampers you are going to run. With a good set of dampers & coils, you only need minimal sway bar upgrade (better way of changing your spring rate & vehicle balance).