Golf R Observations and Questions

[REXman]

If you have actually raced a car, you would know that a combination of engine braking along with holding a gear, can sometimes be crucial to performance. I cant believe I am having to explain this till im blue in the friggin face.

Can we save the for when we know what we are talking about?

Is this a VW thing to hate on performance, Or just to not understand it?

[Corey_R]

REXman, I think that you need to look back at Guy's comments in context, he was talking in the context of "Big Turbo is of couse a different matter, the goal posts have shifted."

Firstly, my car was stage II - which means at least DP as well, but in my case it was the APR Quad TBE. team_v also has a Stage II car, so again someone who has/is experiencing this first hand.

Secondly, I actually do think that the mod would be useful, not necessarily for it not shifting up automatically, but to get rid of the kickdown (which can already be controlled by the driver anyway, it's just easier not to have it there and therefore not to have to worry about it).

But what I question is the performance benefit. And your comments about the topic are just plain incorrect (in the context of stock, stage 1 or stage 2 VWs). My friend has a rather heavily modified R33 Series II GTS-T and I know that in the context of his car that what you are saying is correct. I also know you have extensive experience with WRXs, stock and modified, so I also believe you that in the context of your experience with them, that your comments are correct.

But lets look at the data provided by people who have taken the time to look at this in the context of the VW engines and gearboxes we're talking about:
Acceleration graph & shift points.
So this guy has a Stage I GTI (Bluefin), and has determined that the optimal shift point is at 5800rpm as past that the rate of acceleration drops off. Shifting then puts you back to 3600rpm. Although even still, he notes that the maximum rate of acceleration actually comes at 3000 to 3600rpm, and so ponders whether short shifting so you're in the "maximum rate of acceleration zone" would be quicker in drag races where even the 30ms that the DSG takes to shift would add up. Either way, the numbers show clearly, that holding past 5800rpm "NO DOUBT HINDERS PERFORMANCE" (to quote you REXman, but correct the statement based on the evidence!).

In addition, Arin@APR (who is one of the lucky people who actually works on developing these amazing kits for us... search for the Stage 4 teaser he posted on youtube if you haven't seen it, it's amazing!) has gone and done some logging on the actual DSG shift points.

Now Arin is driving a K04 equipped GTI in these tests. So I'm not sure whether it's a Pirelli or a ED30, or whether he's just done the conversion on regular GTI, but either way, this thing has the same turbo as the R, and since it's at least got a Stage I tune on it, it will be pumping out more than our Golf R's when they arrive, and possibly close to the same as a Stage I tune (The GTI motor with K04 and Stage 1 does ~229kw vs the 239kw in the R, and both do 435Nm). He shows the points that the DSG shifts in the various modes. They are always past the redline. Possibly a bit surprisingly to me, that the car went up to over 7000rpm during a wheelspin moment, indicating that there isn't a rev limiter?

Anyway, the point is, if you're going around a corner and holding 6500rpm, the DSG will let you do that. You can then clear the apex and "punch" out of the corner and it'll let you go to ~6800rpm if you want. But you will have more "punch" if you actually took the corner and shifted into the next gear before the apex and then "punched out" from ~4000rpm.

The R32 for which you provided the link for this software was a NA car and a very different beast. It very definitely benefited from this. The GTI and R? In my 4 years of VW obsession, I haven't come across anything to show it does.

Until there is some data related to these cars to suggest otherwise, as team_v stated, "There is nothing to appreciate though".

[Corey_R]

If you have actually raced a car, you would know that a combination of engine braking along with holding a gear, can sometimes be crucial to performance. I cant believe I am having to explain this till im blue in the friggin face.

Can we save the for when we know what we are talking about?

Is this a VW thing to hate on performance, Or just to not understand it?

Ok, an actual example for you. Rolling along at 80kph and accelerating to 160kph along the straight of a race course in my Stage II GTI. It was quicker to 160kph starting in 3rd gear than it was starting in 2nd gear. This is because in 2nd gear it was already up around 6000rpm and the turbo was already past its optimal speed.

So we're all for performance. But just because one performance car is best driven at the redline, doesn't mean all performance cars are best at redline!

So we're not hating on you dude, we're just trying to explain that it's a different situation in the Golfs. If I still had the Golf, two minutes would convince you of this. I could demonstrate to you in the Polo GTI, but I'm not sure if you'd accept that as a valid test (even though it has the same turbo as the Golf GTI).

[pologti18t]

So we're not hating on you dude, we're just trying to explain that it's a different situation in the Golfs. If I still had the Golf, two minutes would convince you of this. I could demonstrate to you in the Polo GTI, but I'm not sure if you'd accept that as a valid test (even though it has the same turbo as the Golf GTI).

I agree... not much point thrashing a factory turbo car that is tuned for mid-range grunt rather than hi rpm power. I am sure it would be evident what the change up/down points were with the aid of power and torque curves and the gearing of the car.

Rexman Any car/bike (i also own a GSXR750) being held near redline in a corner becomes alot more sensitive to small changes in throttle. I don't particularly like the feeling. Some might.

[oshuyi]

Im not sure what is pointless here. Coreying stay in form mate. Its quite simple. This new feature, allows you to hold your car in gear, without it automatically upshifting, like an auto?. Which is something performance people and the like, would appreciate.

Calm down big fella.

nice one rexman , i couldn't agree more with u, i've never seen a moderator like coreying before.
he's like one of those guys at school, that thinks he knows everything


"Be nice to each other and respect each others opinions. Any personal insults and carrying on as experienced in previous "Manual vs DSG" threads will result in infractions being issued. It may also result in the thread being temporarily closed whilst everyone has a chance to calm down!"

[Corey_R]

This is not a new feature, nor a new product. The product REXman has linked to has been around for at least 3 years now as I came across it whilst investigating Golfs and the mods prior to my first purchase.

I don't claim to know everything at all. Look through threads and you'll see that I'll often defer to more knowledgable members, or even call on other members to help answer questions on subjects I have no experience with. In this particular case we have multiple owners and even businesses with experience on the subject stating one case, we also have logged data direct from the cars supporting the case, and then we have another member who is arguging the opposite and stating that because of how another series of cars drive, the Golf's will drive that way as well - please correct me if I'm incorrect oshuyi.

Anyway - as I've said before, I have nothing against REXman, I've spoken to him in real life previously and he seems like a great guy. I'll be happy for he or anyone else to provide data which supports their case, and I genuinely hope relevant data for the R or K04 GTIs can be provided as if it does make a difference, I'll be interested in purchasing this too!

[Pepe]

R Pictures - Side by side comparison of options

Thought this might be useful for anyone wanting to see what a few options looked like side by side on the R. Mods, feel free to move this into an existing thread if you think it would be better suited there.

At a VW dealer this morning on the never ending search for info on the MY11 Bluetooth kit (will add some info to the other thread later) and as I was leaving, drove past another RB R which was fairly stock standard, so decided to take a couple of pics for comparison purposes. Quality of pics isn't the best given it's a camera phone and I was in a hurry...

Euro vs slimline plates (NSW)
Dark vs Chrome headlights
Black 19 vs Silver 18 wheels
Sunroof vs none

[Prodigy]

Black headlights, Euro plates and Sunroof ftw, A bit hard to compare the rims as the pics are a bit dark but they certainly make your car look the more aggressive.

[dave_r]

Black headlights, Euro plates and Sunroof ftw

What he said!

[REXman]

Again we talking too loosely for my liking nor are we making much sense.

A) being able to hold a gear in the DSG will be more effective around a track, or spirited low speed driving on the road. I don't have, but DONT NEED data maps to explain that.

B) the feature from that company that I'm advertising, which is not the issue anyway, IS available for the R.

C) Some guy, a single person did some tests, and found the best way to drive in a straight line.

WHEN has this ever been about that?! (we'll forget that it's debatable that on an R the optimum shift point is 5800rpm when going in a straight line - this bracketed point is not the point of this discussion anyway).

Fact is I bought a decent (product) discussion to those interested about the R, and it was not appropriate to get shot down for no reason, when it was completely justified and correct, and maybe of some interest to some other people.

Now some people are rambling about IRRELEVANT crap on non issues and coreying wants data maps to prove stuff that I never advertised. Again irrelevant maybe to take the focus on being a **** too quickly?

AND LASTLY, GUY was not taken out of context. At all. Anyone who knows cars, knows what I have been talking about and since GUY seems heavily involved with performance cars he obviously know what the rest of us "posers" already know.

Complete control over gearing is better. just like ACC can be good, like lowering a car can be good, like adding a tune can be good.

And I'm done on this topic.

Have a last dig if you must but that's where I'm leaving it at.

[REXman]

Definitely enjoying the car on the left much more. Wish I got a sunroof now, and the wheels look alright hey.

Headlights also look better in the black.

[Corey_R]

Complete control over gearing is better.

And for anyone that wants that, I've found where you can get it done in Sydney, rather than a UK company that will only do this if you take your car to them. I posted the info in the thread where this discussion originated.

[shakespeare]

Black headlights, Euro plates and Sunroof ftw, A bit hard to compare the rims as the pics are a bit dark but they certainly make your car look the more aggressive.

What he said!

+1 mmmmm car p*rn

Going back to holding gear observation, but can anyone answer if the DSG holds the gear say around 4000-5000 rpm for an extended time, example a nice long sweeping corner and you're holding 3rd around this rpm for more than 20 seconds. I'd try this in my wife's Jetta TFSI but she's out at the moment.

[HPSOV]

but can anyone answer if the DSG holds the gear say around 4000-5000 rpm for an extended time.

If you're in Manual mode it will hold the gear forever (until the revs get to just under the redline).
In Sport mode it will depend on your throttle displacement, S holds on to 3rd for a long time (too long in my opinion, particularly when off throttle), but at that rev range it may well drop to 4th depending on your right foot.
In Drive it will be in 6th gear unless your foot is pushed to the floor.

[G-rig]

Definitely enjoying the car on the left much more. Wish I got a sunroof now, and the wheels look alright hey.

Headlights also look better in the black.

Each to their own but i wouldn't worry about a Sunroof - hardly essential and 2k is better spent elsewhere IMO. Also adds about 40kg of weight in the wrong spot.

I'm not fussed on the Talledega style at all compared to either of the R32 wheels, so you should be able to get some nice after market wheels that look better.