Golf R -v- Golf GTI

[Ideo]

Don't want to pop this forum's lag bubble, personally I've always felt the S3, Golf R, Pirelli have terrible lag irrespective of compassions with Jap cars or ECU flashes.
Now, how do I explain to the guy at work who bought his first VW (golf R) and complains as he describes as "power hesitation" lol. Do i act dumb and say, try driving an EVO?
I could just quote WJ's above post, but might risk scaring him.

The Focus RS and ST are both worse imo.

[QIK-R]

having driven both an rs and the xr5, they are a bit laggy compared to the golf r. the golf i think has a more linear power curve to the xr5..

[dave_r]

If you drive an R and GTI back to back, the R will "seem" laggy as the smaller turbo on the GTI is more responsive but the R isn't laggy. NFI what peoples comparisons are but I've had Jap turbos and XR6T's and the R is fine, stock or stage 1 tuned.

[Capercat]

Rocco, have you driven a tuned R/S3/Pirelli before?

If you're implying an aftermarket tune helps lessen K04 lag, I could suggest this as a possible solution, except how will he take it when he learns it will cost him extra $$, he's taking it to VW to have it checked out I'm kinda enjoying the entertainment. I know I'm cruel haha

[triode12]

If you're implying an aftermarket tune helps lessen K04 lag, I could suggest this as a possible solution, except how will he take it when he learns it will cost him extra $$, he's taking it to VW to have it checked out I'm kinda enjoying the entertainment. I know I'm cruel haha

Yes it does. But the stock R's lag is nothing compared to the stock Pirelli. I think people who complain about it are crazy.

As Parso said, it is more to do with the tune than the actual size of the turbo that is the cause of the lag.

A superchips tune is $680 - chump change in the whole scheme of things.

[REXman]

Well there are a number of answers but I still think it comes down to expectation.. it is a 4 cylinder with a turbo bolted on, you want linear torque curve then buy a v8. The other issue may well be it is a DSG which again has to be driven differently to a standard auto.

+1.

The first thing I thought when I drove the R was how tractable at all RPM it was for a turbo 4.

What. People are expecting V8 like torque from 1000rpm from a turbo 4?

+1 here.

Don't want to pop this forum's lag bubble, personally I've always felt the S3, Golf R, Pirelli have terrible lag irrespective of compassions with Jap cars or ECU flashes.
Now, how do I explain to the guy at work who bought his first VW (golf R) and complains as he describes as "power hesitation" lol. Do i act dumb and say, try driving an EVO?
I could just quote WJ's above post, but might risk scaring him.

You tell the guy at your work that the R is about as good as it gets when it comes to 4-cylinder turbos. You tell him that hesitation is more to do with the DSG engaging first, as this appears to happen slower than it takes your foot to reach from the brake to the accelerator, the price of lightning fast shifts, and just requires better anticipation.

Maybe tell him to stop talking to you as well..

[Capercat]

He'll soon be speaking with a VW tech, DSG hesitation or lag shall wait & see.

[DDTW]

I don't understand all the fuss about the R's lag. Just slip it into S and the car hammers! D is for economical comfortable cruising.

Just went for a spin with a mate who owns a GTI Adidas. The GTI's low down power is way better and more useable than the R's. Above 3000rpm the R pulls a lot stronger.

[Corey_R]

Just went for a spin with a mate who owns a GTI Adidas. The GTI's low down power is way better and more useable than the R's.

I figure that's the "lag" that everyone is talking about... whether it's technically lag or not...

[DDTW]

Awesome video of a Euro Cup Race @ Sepang Circuit - MK6 GTIs and RS250s.

APR GTI FTW!!!! The exhaust is hoon! RS250s seem to understeer a lot.

[AdamD]

I figure that's the "lag" that everyone is talking about... whether it's technically lag or not...

If it looks like lag and smells like lag...

But seriously - I wonder if the EA113 + K04 off-boost is in fact less torquey than the EA888 + K03 off boost (irrespective of the fact that the GTI is tuned to come on boost sooner)?

On that, how much of the perceived low-down torque hole is due to simple tuning (ECU preventing the turbo from spooling up), as opposed to the larger turbo requiring more revs to spin up and causing increased back-pressure until it does so (ie: lag)? As many have said, the K04 ain't that much bigger than a K03 really... if it's down to the tune, perhaps it's for economy reasons? (There seems to be a huge gap in fuel consumption between the two cars; and yes I know there are many other contributing factors for that, including weight.)

I used to drive my dad's old Mitsubishi Cordia Turbo (AB series, 110kw, 980kg) every once in a while... it was light so it was quick on-boost, but wow that had lag. Scary in the wet when it finally came on strong.

[Big_Dave]

Yeah they were fast in a straight line.
Voted "most likely to take a life" by a number of car mags. (didn't like corners)

But a hell of a lotta fun!

[Corey_R]

Awesome video of a Euro Cup Race @ Sepang Circuit - MK6 GTIs and RS250s.

APR GTI FTW!!!! The exhaust is hoon! RS250s seem to understeer a lot.

That's a cool race. I so wish we had more oppportunities for racing here in Australia.
For all the froggies ripping into VW recently, this clearly shows that the cars are quite even when all is said and done... well, maybe the VW's have the slight edge... either that, or better drivers buy VW's instead of Renaults

It's interesting to note how deep into the corners this guy can drive his GTI. We know from things like the MOTOR Hot Tuner challenge that even with upgraded brake kits, the Golf still "struggles" a bit. I wonder what chassis work he has done to help with the braking?

The other interesting thing to note, that APR USA is also doing really well in the Grand-Am Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge. Their drivers are in the 1 and 2 spots in the "Street Tuner" class, as well as #1 Team spot for APR and Volkswagen. Though being the USA, there is no Renaults (there are Subaru's and BMW's etc in their class though...)

[WhiteJames]

The Golf has a very good chassis design. After driving the Renault Megane RS250, I wouldn’t say that the Golf MKV/MKVI is beginning to feel its age, but it could be improved on in some respects. The Golf MK7 platform will offer a wider track as in the case of the Renault RS250. The wider track should improve handling of the MK7 Golf with a lower centre of gravity. A Revo-Knuckle and proper LSD would further improve the GTI.

Suspension tunes these days, on nearly all hot hatches, are tuned to offer slight to mild understeer without any nasty lift-off oversteer as some early model hot-hatches did. Nearly all hot-hatchbacks have grown up in terms of handling dynamics in this respect. XDS and DCC also aids in the reduction of understeer in the Mark 6 GTI. XDS works very well at higher speeds as the YouTube video of the race shows.

Going back to the last review of GTI – RS250:

Have to mention that the coarse chip bitumen roadways around Canberra didn’t help the GTI in terms of grip levels. Wasn’t a much of a difference in the different makes of tyres between the two (Bridgestone –v- Michelin). Coarse chip bitumen is okay for the wet where water sinks into the crevices, but in the dry it can compromise grip levels, even with XDS. A proper LSD was leagues ahead in this type of roadway. The difference between the two on smooth and grippy bitumen is not so pronounced.

Also have to mention that at 60-80kph speeds on rough country roadways the DCC suspension has only firmed up to a certain level, even in Sport setting. Over 100kph the DCC becomes firmer again, improving the GTI’s agility and control over rough roadways. Although the GTI doesn’t offer the amount of spring rate or suspension finesse that the Megane RS250 offers.

Cheers
WJ

[WhiteJames]

Ea888 -v- ea113

In respect to the results of the most recent Dyno Day Thread (NSW) on this forum & taking into account the highest posted outputs for the modified Golf R and Golf GTI ... both with like for like bigger KO4 turbos (aftermarket BTK in case of GTI) and the following upgrades:

EA888 TSI - Stage II Golf GTI - 222kW.
EA113 TFSI - Stage II+ Golf R - 198kW.

Would it be safe to say that the newer EA888 motor in the Mark 6 Golf GTI is better than the older EA113 Golf R to the tune of about 25kW?

Generalised quarter miles times for the same GTI (KO4) and similarly upgraded Golf R (Stage II+)?

GTI (KO4): 13.0 sec dead.
Golf R: 13.3 sec.

Cheers
WJ