Golf R -v- Golf GTI

[lavna]

Hey break coma standard definition is, (long periods of unconsciousness) I think you mean comma.
Ok back up and go to fast four and rotarys in 1999 and look at my car before it was turbo charged a yellow rx3 not 808 and see that I won the street machine nationals with that car it ran 13.0 at 107 miles an hour street tyres and it was bridge ported no turbo no nitrous no awd no fuel injection and your trying to get to those time 20 years later.
By the way I am not on the thread to do a essay and be marked on it. Just telling people the way drag racing really is.

[lavna]

Sorry i made a typo street machine nationals in 1991

[SuperHans]

dino reading is wrong

for sure, infact it hasn't been done since about 65million B.C.

[Beena]

Perspective: An EVO does 0-100 in 5.35 seconds. A GOLF R does it in around 5.7.

Last I checked a Stock R had been clocked at 5.37s with a VBOX PerformanceBox...

[Sammy125TDi]

Last I checked a Stock R had been clocked at 5.37s with a VBOX PerformanceBox...

All you guys need to do is take your cars to the drag strip and this argument will be sorted... VBOX is a useful tool for comparing cars on the same day in controlled circumstance, like the motor tests...

A timeslip from the drags will tell you EVERYTHING about how your car gets off the line, horsepower etc.

[Beena]

That's true, but unfortunately the drag strip won't give the hotly debated 0-100 times. Maybe we need to grab a VBox 3i and make a day of it, a nice, cold day...

Regardless I'm happy that my Golf is line ball with an E92 M3 Manual having dragged many times now to ~140. We even swapped cars, the Golf is just that much easier to launch consistently! I'm sure the M3 would have it by a considerable margin over the 1/4 though.

[Sammy125TDi]

That's true, but unfortunately the drag strip won't give the hotly debated 0-100 times. Maybe we need to grab a VBox 3i and make a day of it, a nice, cold day...

Regardless I'm happy that my Golf is line ball with an E92 M3 Manual having dragged many times now to ~140. We even swapped cars, the Golf is just that much easier to launch consistently! I'm sure the M3 would have it by a considerable margin over the 1/4 though.

I passed an E46 down the straight of Eastern Creek at last thursdays track meet. They're a snack.

I's be more concerned about 135's... they're seriously fast with a tune...

P.S: Who cares about 0-100 times? you get measurements for half 3/4 and full track with speeds aswell... Also, you leave when the light goes green, just like the green light on the street.. thats what its all about..

[Mr_Bob]

Hey break coma standard definition is, (long periods of unconsciousness) I think you mean comma.
Ok back up and go to fast four and rotarys in 1999 and look at my car before it was turbo charged a yellow rx3 not 808 and see that I won the street machine nationals with that car it ran 13.0 at 107 miles an hour street tyres and it was bridge ported no turbo no nitrous no awd no fuel injection and your trying to get to those time 20 years later.

BP 12a should make 200hp at the treads easily, so nearly 200kw at the flywheel, in a 900kg car.
13sec isn't rocket science, i would not expect anything less
We're talking about a 1500kg car with less power, that can keep up...that's technology

[WhiteJames]

LSD and Suspension Tech

I've added Round 2 and Round 3 in post #2 on page #1 of this thread for ease of reference to the beginning of each of the subsequent reviews.

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It's only normal to refer to other vehicles when making a point relative to the Golf R and Golf GTI. Even if those vehicles are 30 y.o. rotaries or the latest MPS3, WRX or EVO.

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The torque sensing helical limited slip differential (LSD) in the Renault Megane RS250 is supplied by Japanese firm GKN Driveline. GKN are well known for supplying driveline parts for Nissan, now known as Renault-Nissan.

The torque sensing helical LSD in the Megane LSD has a bias ratio of 2.3 to 1. That is the wheel with most grip receives 2.3 times the drive of the wheel with the least grip. A lower bias ratio of 2.3 to 1 aids performance in the tight twisting roadways such as the hill-climb in the latest Wheels Hot-Hatch review. A torque bias ratio of 3 - 4 to 1 generally works better on faster and wider race tracks.

Quaife do not supply bias ratios for their torque sensing LSD. Peloquin are generally more aggressive in ratio than the Quaife and have an 80/20 LSD, whereby 80% of the drive goes to the wheel with the most grip relative to the wheel with the least grip. In contrast, the Renault Megane GKN Driveline LSD has a bias ratio of about 40% based on the 2.3 to 1 torque bias. For the street the 2.3 to 1 bias ratio works well as in the case of the Renault.

In terms of suspension tune, it’s an excellent feat to tune a stand type non-electronic suspension that handles and rides better than the Dynamic Chassis Control (DCC) of the Golf GTI. Damper rebound, high-speed and low-speed compression and spring rate have to be perfectly matched, as in the case of the Renault Megane RS250, which seems to work well on our rugged country roadways. Matched spring & damper combo’s are usually the reserve of a set of well tuned coil-over kit.

Another aspect to consider is un-sprung weight. The Renault Megane RS250 has worked on reducing the un-sprung weight of the suspension front and rear.

The front Perfo-Hub (Revo-Knuckle) receives aluminium front suspension pivot, pivot carrier and lower suspension arm and lower sub-frame, which is horned in shape giving 3 times the directional rigidity of the previous model Megane RS250. This adds to the tight feel of the chassis on direction changes. The front wheel geometry has been improved when driving under considerable load due to the strut strength doubling from addition of larger diameter damper housing and shaft diameters. These are all impressive suspension upgrades imo. The Audi RS3 receives wider front tyres than rear tyres (235/225) aiming for better turn-in response. Renault have taken a garden variety hatch and included all these extra bits to transform the entire package.

The rear torsion beam on the RS250 receives a closed beam that increases rigidity and reduces weight, compared to an open beam that’s offered on other types of vehicles. Reduction in un-sprung weight can have between 4-6 times improvement in relation to sprung weight (weight above the suspension that is suspended).

Imo improvements in un-sprung weight & rigidity have to be a factor in the excellent compromise between the handling/comfort suspension tune that the Megane RS250 offers on local roadways – having that something extra that the electronics and chassis tune of the Golf struggles to match. The improvements, in addition to a wider front and rear track compared to the Golf GTI, tend towards improvements in handling and most importantly, driver appeal. Makes that routine drive something to relish. This is a major compliant amongst Golf owners, esp. Golf R owners – not enough driver involvement. Having said that, the EA888 engine of the Mark 6 GTI is a better unit than the twin scroll turbo unit in the Renault, despite making less power than the Renault engine.

Cheers
WJ

[WhiteJames]

Hot Hatch -v- Exotics

Over a Latte or two, had the pleasure of reading the Car Magazine (U.K.) Performance Car of the Year. Carmag take 8 finalists for drives around the South and Alps of France. Apart from the Subaru STI Cosworth, Lotus Elise and Renault Megane RS250 – all other vehicles were exotics such as Lamborghini, Ferrari 458 Italia, Porsche GT2, Mercedes SLS, BMW M3 GTS etc.

The Renault Megane RS250 come in at 6th position overall, trumping the Subaru Cosworth and Lotus Elise. Interesting to note the motoring press reviews after I have driven the same ride - to either confirm or disprove what I have experienced.

Here are some comments from CAR Magazine (U.K):

The Megane RS250 may not be a supercar, but it’s almost as dynamically perfect as a modern front-drive car can be. Some CAR staffers think the Megane RS250 is more fun than the Elise to drive. The Megane’s front end bite is so good, it steering so precise, that it feels as sharp as the supercars. The Megane’s steering, while as accurate as a calculator, is about as characterful (that’s electronic assisted steering for you – same thing with the Golf’s). The Megane suffers from the same problem as the Lotus Elise; its chassis could clearly cope with more power than their motors deliver. You don’t feel short-changed when handed the keys to the cheaper Megane when compared to the exotics. The Megane, out on real world roadways around the French Alps, is forever filling the side mirrors of a supercar. When compared to the Subaru Cosworth: It’s half the price, steers and handles better, looks better, feels more tightly screwed together – It offers a more cohesive and rewarding drive than the Cosworth. It also overshadows Lotus Elise – It’s faster out on real world roadways, cheaper and similarly fun.

Not bad for a 50K French Hot-Hatch. I’d say that I’d have to agree with all these statements in respect to the Megane RS250. The chassis tune doesn’t offer the raw lift-off oversteer that the earlier French hot-hatches offer or when compared to my old MKV Golf GTI with KW V3 and H&R sway bars. The Renault has had its suspension tune backed down a notch or two in this regard, and like the modern MK6 Golf GTI with EDL-XDS, steers primarily from the front with a slight bias towards understeer. Make for a reassuring and safe drive.

Cheers.
WJ

[SilvrFoxX]

All very interesting but why keep banging on about the Megane in a GTI v R thread..?

[aVex]

Yeah WhiteJames, I love reading your write ups, but why don't you start another thread with a Renault heading? It's starting to deviate away from the GTI v R

[Brian]

All very interesting but why keep banging on about the Megane in a GTI v R thread..?

140 pages of GTI vs R thread.... 1392 posts.......
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the "R" is a better motor vehicle than the GTI. Thats why its far more expensive! If the different models weren't better than the underlings (like my 118TSI) then we'd all be driving 77 TSIs. WhiteJames has introduced some alternatives to the Golf v Golf argument and frankly I find it more interesting and informative instead of the blah, blah, blah, of the Golf diatribe.

[WhiteJames]

There's been some conjecture as to why Golf R owners (EA113) are not receiving improvements in driveability when altering the ECU compared to GTI owners (EA88. Part of the problem of the older EA113 has to do with fueling. The other aspect is the type of turbo-charger & scavenging effect. The newer EA888 of the GTI has improved exhaust scavenging due to the exhaust turbine manifold being incorporated into the turbo itself. The tubing into the exhaust turbine also has a say in the scavenging effect for maximum efficiency of the turbo. Other makes such as BMW, Porsche and Renault-Sport take a different path & use twin scroll turbos for greater efficiency -esp. down low in terms of driveability and up high for outright performance. Here's an interesting article that touches on single-scroll, twin-scroll and exhaust turbine manifold design:

http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-0906-twin-scroll-turbo-system-design/index.html

Cheers
WJ

[REXman]

Scavenging? Turn it up WJ. There are so many reasons for why a cars turbo is able to spool up slowly/quickly.

What is the wheel made out of (eg ceramic is light).. a/r ratios of the turbo housing.. Ball bearing or not.. Don't just bring out the single vs twin scroll like it's certainly applicable to why the RS turbo doesnt spool as quickly as the GTIs turbo.

Here's a simple to understand version of what I'm talking about FAQ - Ball Bearing Turbo's (do I need them?)

The Rs turbo has less down low.. Cause it's bigger than the K03.. that's the gist of it.. Just like how the GTIs turbo lacks top end for anything serious (even the K04 is pushing it TBH).

WJ I know you love the CTRL + C buttons..