Golf R -v- Golf GTI

[WhiteJames]

Whitejames: Can you clarify what you mean when you mention the fuel delivery felt more precise in the GTI compared to the R? Not sure I follow that point

Service Training

Self-Study Program 824803


The Volkswagen 2.0 Liter
Chain-Driven TSI Engine


Fuel System
38

High-Pressure Regulation


Fuel pressure and fuel quantity are regulated by Fuel
Pressure Regulator Valve N276. The signal from Fuel
Pressure Sensor G247 is used by the engine control
module as a parameter. This sensor is located in the
fuel rail.



Power demand has been reduced signifi cantly
through a newly designed fuel pressure regulating
valve and associated control concept.



At the start of delivery, Fuel Pressure Regulating
Valve N276 is activated only very briefl y. The intake
valve closes, fuel pressure builds up, and fuel
delivery immediately begins.



High-Pressure Pump


The demand controlled high-pressure pump by
Bosch is driven by a four lobed cam on the end of
the intake camshaft.



The pump piston is driven by the camshaft and a
cam follower. This reduces friction as well as the
chain forces. The results are smoother engine
operation and higher fuel economy.



The use of the four lobe cam has allowed a reduced
piston stroke compared to earlier versions of the
2.0L TSI engine. Due to the shorter stroke, the
individual delivery rates are lower. This, in turn,
results in reduced pressure fl uctuations. The
metering precision of the injectors is also improved,
as there is now one feed stroke per injection. The
advantage of this is improved oxygen sensor control
and fuel effi ciency.



The high-pressure pump produces a maximum
pressure of 2175.5 psi (150 bar). The fuel pressure
requested by the engine control module is adjusted
by Fuel Pressure Regulator Valve N276. The pressure
is regulated between 725.1 psi (50 bar) and 2175.5
psi (150 bar) depending on engine requirements.
The high-pressure pump now has its own pressure
limiting valve. This valve opens at approximately 2900
psi (200 bar) and admits pressure into the pump
chamber.



Previously, pressure was discharged into
the low-pressure circuit. Excessively high-pressures
can build up in overrun or when the engine heat
soaks after shut-off.



The pressure pulsations in the low-pressure circuit
are reduced by a damping element integrated in the
pump.

The above information is from a technical self-help guide for Audi tecnicians.

I saved a copy of this guide as I was interested in researching the cam follower issue on the EA113 -v- EA888 motors.

The four lobe cam of the EA888 gives greater precision in fuel delivery with each throttle application - improving fuel consumption & consistency in throttle repsonse.

The four lobe cam - fuel actuator is an improvement similar to the introduction of direct injection, but in a different area of the motor.

The remapping of the throttle is related to the software ECU tune of the motor.

The four lobe cam of the EA888 relates to a hardware improvement.

It's unlikey that a remap ECU tune will totally eliminate that fact that the EA113 motor does not have a four lobe camshaft - fuel follower actuator hardware upgrade.

You're welcome to put forth your opinions on each vehicle.

Healthy debate is encourgaged.

Cheers
WJ

[Sharkie]

LOL! I still want to see him take a corner like a GTI!

Happy to demonstrate the advantages of AWD to you Mav .... unless you're on a race track there is no corner on the open road that you'd have an advantage on in a stock GTI at semi-legal speeds .... recently chased a Stg2 Black Mk5 GTI through the roundabouts from the display homes at North Lakes and I had to reign in the Tig to prevent it from running over and into the back of the smoking poor GTI .... AWD and masses of low down power & torque (the advantage of the EA888 and even more so when tuned) outperformed the poor GTI .....

Which is exactly the reason for the R ... AWD and good power (needs tuning to extract the best though) .... unbeatable combination ...

[hooba]

.............it is easy to follow, but can't help but form the opinion that it is more about justifying his GTI than reviewing the R!

WJ gives his time to post one of the more well informed and well written posts on this forum, and you decide to accuse him of bias. Instead of playing the man, if you disagree strongly enough with what he has posted why don't you directly address with WJ the area where your own experience of driving the R and the GTI back to back differs?

[Maverick]

WJ gives his time to post one of the more well informed and well written posts on this forum, and you decide to accuse him of bias. Instead of playing the man, if you disagree strongly enough with what he has posted why don't you directly address with WJ the area where your own experience of driving the R and the GTI back to back differs?

x 2

WJ spends a lot of time putting together such detailed reviews and I respect what he has to say over 99.9% of the posters on here.

[Corey_R]

The above information is from a technical self-help guide for Audi tecnicians.

I saved a copy of this guide as I was interested in researching the cam follower issue on the EA113 -v- EA888 motors.

The four lobe cam of the EA888 gives greater precision in fuel delivery with each throttle application - improving fuel consumption & consistency in throttle repsonse.

The four lobe cam - fuel actuator is an improvement similar to the introduction of direct injection, but in a different area of the motor.

The remapping of the throttle is related to the software ECU tune of the motor.

The four lobe cam of the EA888 relates to a hardware improvement.

It's unlikey that a remap ECU tune will totally eliminate that fact that the EA113 motor does not have a four lobe camshaft - fuel follower actuator hardware upgrade.

You're welcome to put forth your opinions on each vehicle.

Healthy debate is encourgaged.

Cheers
WJ

Thanks for the post and clarification WJ. Just to clarify further though.
You could actually FEEL the different in fuel delivery DURING your test drive? Or you were just throwing that in there because you had read that above service article?

[G-rig]

1 thing I think is not coming through clear enough in this thread (mainly because I suspect most don't undertand how important it is) is the difference AWD makes to the performance of a car ....

AWD mainly helps in the rain and on the track.. doesn't rain that much in BNE so i'm not too concerned, but would be nice to have given the weight difference isn't 200kg any more like with the R32.

Sure it takes a bit getting used to for the leagues of FWD only capable drivers who judge performance by tyres spinning and torque steer instead of actual forward motion .... but stick with it, its worth it ....

Sounds like your APR polo GTI was a lot of fun to drive and isn't that the main thing? Sometimes it's about the driving experience not outright speed.

Classic example is the 2 recent Stg 3 APR cars .... their GTI and the S3 .... similar power .... completely different feel .... everybody who drove them thought the GTI was faster .... ???? .... WRONG .... think 5.5s GTI v 4.2s S3 .... and why? .... all down to AWD traction or lack of FWD traction ....

You'll have to ask Guy which is more fun to drive.. (the Stage 3 GTI is very quick but no doubt the Stage 3 R/S3 could put a bit more of the power down).

After i drove the R I found that the power is a bit deceiving and more linear, and feels like it takes longer to get going. Still a bit more of a tourer as far as i can see, but a modded one would be better to tune out some of the lag. Depends what you want as there will always be a faster car out there, and unless you doing timed laps it may be an overkill for the streets anyway.

x 2

WJ spends a lot of time putting together such detailed reviews and I respect what he has to say over 99.9% of the posters on here.

x3.

It makes for an interesting and informative read and know a lot of people on various forums appreciate his input. I couldn't analise a test drive that well or in as much detail.

He's correct about the scrubbing as the R32's with 18x7.5" 225/40/18 can scrub on stock suspension so not hard to believe that the R may as well with 0.5" wider wheels and tyres. I also removed the fender screw and had 18x8 OZ wheels with 225/40/18 and had very few issues with scrubbing when lowered 30mm - mostly on mid corner crests or fast dips etc. The point is it pays to do the research if considering different wheels/tyres/suspension.

[Corey_R]

AWD mainly helps in the rain and on the track.. doesn't rain that much in BNE so i'm not too concerned, but would be nice to have given the weight difference isn't 200kg any more like with the R32.

Yep, the Golf R is only 116kg heavier than the GTI.

[sharkablue]

Please correct me if i'm wrong

I dont see the point of the AWD system in the R. It is FWD biased. So for 99% of the time (when you are on normal roads driving it) it is only spending power to the front wheels.

It is only when it senses loss of traction or whatever that it will send power to the rear wheels.

So whats the point of it?

The GTI is also FWD and it has that Electronic Diff thrown into the mix.

Yes I am getting a GTI, so it maybe very biased coming from me. But all these blokes on here talking about "On the race track"... seriously... when the hell are you ever going to be on a race track? Let alone 99% of R Golf owners.

You are driving this car along public roads with speed limits and police around. The only real difference between them will be seen on twisty PUBLIC roads, and even then by all accounts the GTI is better and more fun in the corners going from other peoples reviews.

I dont know if its just my age, but all these guys talking about "Well on a race track the R and GTI Bla bla bla" really has me 'pfft'ing at the screen and rolling my eyes.

[Sharkie]

You'll have to ask Guy which is more fun to drive.. (the Stage 3 GTI is very quick but no doubt the Stage 3 R/S3 could put a bit more of the power down).

I did drive both of them .... and prefered the S3 .... minimal fuss, just awesome forward motion .... GTI was more "entertaining" but ultimately much slower ....

In the nanny states that Australians live in, a tyre smoking FWD hatch is a sure way of attracting unneccesary police attention ..... and in a powerful FWD there is no way around it ....

Some might say ... modulate the throttle better .... LOL .... sure, if you want to move forward VERY slowly in comparison to the AWD dissapearing in the distance ....

[Sharkie]

Please correct me if i'm wrong

I dont see the point of the AWD system in the R. It is FWD biased. So for 99% of the time (when you are on normal roads driving it) it is only spending power to the front wheels.

It is only when it senses loss of traction or whatever that it will send power to the rear wheels.

Actually all incorrect .... upon starting off it starts with a 50:50 split F>R .... only moved to a FWD bias when you exceed a speed of 40km/h ....

And the R has the latest Haldex in it, which is better than any before it and moves power around before it detects traction losses ....

I'm not the biggest fan of the 4Motion Haldexes .... prefer the Torsen permanent AWD setups .... but it is much better than FWD ....

The only real difference between them will be seen on twisty PUBLIC roads, and even then by all accounts the GTI is better and more fun in the corners going from other peoples reviews.

Also a clear indication of a lack of understanding .... going into a corner theres not going to be much into it ... HOWEVER ... depending on how sharp the corner is ... coming out is where the difference comes in ... FWD powerdown issues and torque steer is very evident coming out of a corner .... whereas the AWDs just get on with the job .... AND this applies on the road and on the race track ...

Again, unless you have experience of these things ... don't knock it ... or believe all you read .... some posters on here may have good experience in certain areas however, I have yet to see any evidence of any actual experience or understanding of what it takes to make a car go well ....

[G-rig]

Please correct me if i'm wrong

I dont see the point of the AWD system in the R. It is FWD biased. So for 99% of the time (when you are on normal roads driving it) it is only spending power to the front wheels.

It is only when it senses loss of traction or whatever that it will send power to the rear wheels.

So whats the point of it?

That's what i found with the R32, acts as a FWD most of the time and by the time it engages to AWD it could be too late and would still understeer. The R should be a bit better though with the newer haldex Gen IV and better weight distribution to start with.

Full time AWD would wear out your tyres, drivetrain quicker and worse economy.

Agree with your point anybody fanging it that hard should be on a track, not on public roads. I've been to a skid pan day at Mount Cotton, and all the FWD cars still went quite well. The AWD cars could drive around like normal and it was amazing how composed they are.

[Tux]

SNIP

I dont know if its just my age, but all these guys talking about "Well on a race track the R and GTI Bla bla bla" really has me 'pfft'ing at the screen and rolling my eyes.

With you 100% there mate... My wife used to work at a race circuit so I got to spend a lot of time there. The number of blokes with the flashest of cars who couldn't drive a nail was incredible. I was glad though they went to the track to do their fast driving because they'd be a menace on public roads.

[Treza360]

I prefer AWD to the FWD (not that it helped me ultimately) and that was a system two generations old. I've had Dad's GTI on loan for nearly 5 weeks now and the slight tugs on the wheel and the wheelspin when you need to pull out of a driveway or side turning quickly or a quick jump at the lights is very annoying.
That said I'm still struggling to find anything that I like in the GTI in comparison to my old R32.
As an additional comment, my next car is going to be FWD.
Cheers,
Trent

[Sharkie]

As usual this thread has degenerated in uselessness .....

Nobody said anything about a R v GTI on the track and none of posts related directly to that ... in fact I have been at pains to show how much better the R is over the GTI ON THE ROAD ....

Bottom line is .....

If you are an enthusiast driver the R wins by a significant margin ......

If you purely wanted bragging rights and couldn't really care about how much better the 1 is over the other .... the R, being the top of the Golf range, is the only 1 to get ....

If you bought a GTI (for whatever reason) and now want to justify that position see the previous 2 points .... .... no amount of justifcation will get you past those 2 fundamentals ....

[emack]

Oh I'm sorry hooba..........I thought this was a "forum" where you were allowed to express an "opinion" (which I clearly stated in my post was my OPINION!)

Chill out bud............go get laid or something!