VW Tiguan Inadequate market targeting

[Sharkie]

VW now refer to the 2.0Turbo (in its various outputs) as TSI in all its material. It has only a single turbocharger.

[mrx]

Looking at the German VW website it is definately a 2.0 in the 147 & 125kW variants. The manual 125kW & Auto 147kW both have pretty sluggish 0-100 times of 8.5 seconds - makes the Forester look even more appealing!

[Sharkie]

But..... if the 125kw can be modified (cheaply) to produce around 200kw & 420NM, it will likely break below 6s 0-100km/h....

A 160kw Polo GTI & 190kw Golf GTI will both do about 6s and they both have severe traction issues.

A 4motion Tiguan (6-speed manual), weighing about 1500kg should beat them both.....

[mrx]

I know what a chipped Golf GTI can do, as that's what I drive. That's the kind of acceleration I would like to emulate (hold on mutts!). Hmm, wonder what a chipped Forester could do?!

[Sharkie]

After finding out that there would be a problem getting a manual 147kw Tiguan, I researched modifications to the 2.5T (169kw) in the Subarus.

Essentially there are many mods available, slightly more expensive to do as to get it to 220kw will cost about $5000. A chip on its own ($1500) only take it to 180kw. The VW's are easier to do and can take more without making too many changes.

The Forrester will have mechanical permanent AWD, which is far superior to 4motion and after spending $5K on both would probably be the quickest.

I'll wait to see what Guy's verdict is after his research trip to the UK as the XT Forrester will likely be $42K whereas the 125kw Tiguan will start at $34k. Suitably optioned I'd expect it to be $40K.

[mrx]

I believe you get pretty good low down torque increases with the Scoobies with just an ECU tweak and perhaps intake / exhaust, even if it does only go up 11kw.

[Sharkie]

Had a discussion with Alex at APR today whilst getting a new engine mount.

The same engine 2.0TSI in the A6 Audi by Oettinger get 162kw and 380NM.

This seems reasonable and the APR version is likely to free up another 10kw so, around 170kw seems reasonable with only a chip. With a few other choice bits is likely to reach the target 200kw.

Might have a Tiguan yet, as I really like its looks.....

[mrx]

Still shows some promise then. You could get a chip, exhaust, intake & intercooler and still walk away with a couple of grand change compared to buying the 147kW auto.

The dealer emailed yesterday to say they have the new Forester XT in, so I'm going for a test drive tomorrow. Having not seen either the Forester or the Tiguan in the flesh I'd have to say I like the styling of the Tiguan better (from the pictures), but the Forester does seem fairly well equiped for the price. Waiting nine months for a Tiguan may also be too much to bear.

Edit: Turns out they won't have an XT until the end of the month, they only have the standard one at the moment.

[Sharkie]

VW has a price list for the Tiguan on its website....(if you lokk hard enough)...

Did some calculations and specced up how I would like it.

125kw 6speed manual $33990
Metalic paint $ 790
Park assist sensors $ 1390
Comfort Package $ 990
Alarm $ 590
Foglights $ 390

Total $38140

APR Chip (guessing) $ 1700

TOTAL for 170kw+ $ 39840

Thats competitive price wise with the XT and should have more goodies included.

I will still see them both in the flesh 1st though before making a decision.

[nick1234]

Go Manual!

My view is that all VW's should be in manual with an automatic option. That reduces the entry level price of the vehicle plus manual cars are A more fuel efficient and B reduce wear and tear on the breaks etc. - as the engine can take care of that. That also depends on the driver of course.

Don't know why, but Australia seems to be going automatic, like America, which is sad to see. In Europe, the only people who purchase automatic cars are above 70 years old and they do so as they more often shift into the wrong gears. I would personally never buy an automatic as I would miss out on so much fun that comes with the shifting of VW's sporty gearboxes

P.S. I noticed that so many BMW's on sale here in Australia are automatic only. Now BMW prides itself for it's sporty gearboxes, why buy one and miss out on all the fun that would otherwise come with such a fine car?

[Mischa]

Don't know why, but Australia seems to be going automatic, like America, which is sad to see. In Europe, the only people who purchase automatic cars are above 70 years old and they do so as they more often shift into the wrong gears. I would personally never buy an automatic as I would miss out on so much fun that comes with the shifting of VW's sporty gearboxes

i agree with some of that ie: that manuals are the best but i disagree that europeans dont like autos. mercedes has used mostly auto's for decades now, and a manual transmission isnt available on most of their cars still today. vw is the other prime offender of killing off the manual tranny with the dsg. the line between auto and manual has since been blurred and other manufacturers are now following suit. soon the market for a manual will be too small to make it economically profitable for car makers to produce them (but will there be oil then? )

cars are A more fuel efficient and B reduce wear and tear on the breaks etc. - as the engine can take care of that.

dsg is as fuel efficient as a manual and you can use engine braking in exactly the same way (because, well, it is a manual)

oh and btw both my cars are manuals

[idaho]

Looking at the German VW website it is definately a 2.0 in the 147 & 125kW variants. The manual 125kW & Auto 147kW both have pretty sluggish 0-100 times of 8.5 seconds - makes the Forester look even more appealing!

What is not known with these figures is where the gear changes are. If there is a change just under 100km/h then those figures will mask the performance somewhat.

Also, the German and UK spec sheets suggest the engines run on RON95 fuel rather than RON98 for the previous versions of this engine. Will the output be higher if RON98 is used (as some engines do). And nobody seems to have noticed that the 125 and 147kw engines have the same maximum torque but the 147kw carries that torque to higher rpm. Perhaps the 147kw is somewhat detuned also.

As for auto vs manual vs dsg I think that Europeans buy manuals because they are cheaper and more economical than traditional automatics. I travel regularly to continental Europe and I would think that they aren't including the cost of replacement clutches because most Euros that I have driven with are hard on clutches (clutch slip) most of the time. I also think that autos with flex converters (torque converters that can lock in all gears) wil be virtually the same as manuals for performance and economy. The offraod switch or what ever it is called might mean the Tiguan has the flex converter. I don't know that I will ever be convinced of the longevity of a dsg style transmission. If you are creeping in traffic or holding a hill start with the accelerator the clutch is being slipped, unlike a torque converter in an auto. I think dsg transmissions would be better if they had some form of lock up converter in addition to the clutches. Also how much is it to have the twin dsg clutch packs replaced? Not cheap I would think.

[mrx]

i agree with some of that ie: that manuals are the best but i disagree that europeans dont like autos. mercedes has used mostly auto's for decades now, and a manual transmission isnt available on most of their cars still today. vw is the other prime offender of killing off the manual tranny with the dsg. the line between auto and manual has since been blurred and other manufacturers are now following suit. soon the market for a manual will be too small to make it economically profitable for car makers to produce them (but will there be oil then? )

What is VW thinking reverting to an automatic instead of DSG? They obviously have it sorted out with the 4wd system and more power / torque than in the Tiguan (aka R32). If VW were offering the DSG in the Tiguan, I'd consider it, although I definately preferred the manual in the GTI. An old school automatic??? - Sorry, I just can't bring myself to live with it.

What is not known with these figures is where the gear changes are. If there is a change just under 100km/h then those figures will mask the performance somewhat.

Good point, in fact I would say that is exactly what is going on. The German website actually quotes 0-80 & 0-100 times. You can hit 100km/hr in second gear in the Golf GTI (just). The website quotes the times as 5.2s (80) and 7.2s (100). The 147kw manual Tiguan is quoted as 5.1s/7.9s, so it looks very much like there is an extra gear change in there. When you look at it like that the 125kW manual isn't too far off the pace at 5.5s/8.5s, and with an ECU reflash should be back in GTI territory!

Interestingly the new Forester is quoted as being about 1 second slower to 100km/hr compared to the outgoing model, but only weighs 35kg more - sounds like the gear ratios might have changed there too?

Also, the German and UK spec sheets suggest the engines run on RON95 fuel rather than RON98 for the previous versions of this engine. Will the output be higher if RON98 is used (as some engines do). And nobody seems to have noticed that the 125 and 147kw engines have the same maximum torque but the 147kw carries that torque to higher rpm. Perhaps the 147kw is somewhat detuned also.

Technically the engines run on 95RON in Australia too, but 98RON is recommended for maximum performance. If you look inside the fuel cap it shows 98RON, with 95 in brackets. The German website mentions that 95 RON is the minimum fuel standard (as opposed to recommended).

Sharkie noted in an earlier post in this thread that both the 125kW & 147kW engines have a maximum torque of 280Nm.

147kW is definately detuned. My Golf GTI uses the same engine and it is more like 175kW & 340Nm now, and that is a relatively mild tune compared to some of the others.

[idaho]

What is VW thinking reverting to an automatic instead of DSG? They obviously have it sorted out with the 4wd system and more power / torque than in the Tiguan (aka R32). If VW were offering the DSG in the Tiguan, I'd consider it, although I definately preferred the manual in the GTI. An old school automatic??? - Sorry, I just can't bring myself to live with it.

Sharkie noted in an earlier post in this thread that both the 125kW & 147kW engines have a maximum torque of 280Nm.

Re the lack of DSG. I would think that if you get into a tough offroading situation that the clutch pack for 1st gear (is that same pack also for reverse?) could get a real flogging or there might be durability concerns. Also the dsg clutches are wet (inside the gearbox) so it might all get too hot in harder offroad driving.

You're right about Sharkie's note of the torque. I wonder why there is no 125kw auto diesel overseas, maybe too much torque.

For me, even though I currently drive a manual, I would have the 147kw auto no problem. Autos are just nicer to drive in heavy traffic, and I really can't see them losing much economy on the highway with the converter locked, as long as it doesn't want to shift gears up and down like a yoyo at any sign of an incline.

[mrx]

Re the lack of DSG. I would think that if you get into a tough offroading situation that the clutch pack for 1st gear (is that same pack also for reverse?) could get a real flogging or there might be durability concerns. Also the dsg clutches are wet (inside the gearbox) so it might all get too hot in harder offroad driving.

Off road, what are you nuts?! Never thought of one of these ever getting it's feet dirty!