Sam's build thread

[metalhead]

Andrew you're famous - check out the main page.

CAMS NSW Hillclimb Championship >> REPORT: 2018 Rd 8 Mantic Clutch “Huntley Hillclimb”

Just about makes up for not being mentioned when I won the class last round! Kidding, it is great to have the site with articles and pics from every round.

I had thought I was down on power last weekend - turns out that while the burnt connector got the car running again, the cause was a dying fuel pump after all. Got it fixed over the weekend - the car was falling over dead lean anywhere past 5,000rpm, now it's pulling clean to 7,000 again.

That caster should help - as I've told you before I think, one of the most major changes I've made to my car is getting a lot more caster out of it. I'm running Mattara this weekend, I should have mentioned it sooner, you haven't entered I presume?

[sambb]

No wont be doing Mattara. Haven't done it since they moved from King Edward Park to Ringwood. Which day will you run on?
Sounds like we both had some issues at Huntley. I got in contact with the guy that did the tune discussing how the car was a bit slow to wind up when getting back on the power hard on 3rd after the esses. We've been sending tunes back and forth/loading/logging etc and now have a much more aggressive boost onset. I'd thought that maybe it was down on timing a bit as the loads increased with boost, as we'd done all the logging in very cool temps in August and thought maybe the timing had been a bit conservative, but it ended up being boost control. He'd initially actually done it that way because I'd asked for it. We'd talked about tempering the boost onset because the car used to wash wide under power so it was set up that way. It was great at South Circuit like that coming out of the hairpins so we left it, but I think how fast/steep Huntley is sort of exposed it a bit. So now I have a few boost ramps that I can use but will probably use the one that I had at Huntley if its wet and then the fastest spool for in the dry which'll be handy.

[simon k]

very very interesting... I wonder if you might be looking for less timing in summer too

it's unfortunate that you can't really data log a hillclimb run, not without upsetting scrutineers anyway

[metalhead]

No wont be doing Mattara. Haven't done it since they moved from King Edward Park to Ringwood. Which day will you run on?
Sounds like we both had some issues at Huntley. I got in contact with the guy that did the tune discussing how the car was a bit slow to wind up when getting back on the power hard on 3rd after the esses. We've been sending tunes back and forth/loading/logging etc and now have a much more aggressive boost onset. I'd thought that maybe it was down on timing a bit as the loads increased with boost, as we'd done all the logging in very cool temps in August and thought maybe the timing had been a bit conservative, but it ended up being boost control. He'd initially actually done it that way because I'd asked for it. We'd talked about tempering the boost onset because the car used to wash wide under power so it was set up that way. It was great at South Circuit like that coming out of the hairpins so we left it, but I think how fast/steep Huntley is sort of exposed it a bit. So now I have a few boost ramps that I can use but will probably use the one that I had at Huntley if its wet and then the fastest spool for in the dry which'll be handy.

Running on both days - as it's no longer a state round, all competitors run on both days, makes it a good deal at $115 entry for both days.

Makes sense, on steep hills you'll want as much power as you can get as soon as possible in most instances I'd think? Whereas Eastern Creek/Wakefield/Tamworth may well be a different story.

[sambb]

yeah Simon the reason why Dave didnt want to push the timing too far when we tuned in August was to be on the safe side for warmer temps or a really heat soaked start line launch at the hillclimbs. I was lucky the other day. I was able to log the last change we made in 30 degrees and did one of the runs after sitting the car for ages until idle inlet temps were 60 degrees. It pulled less than 3 degrees only above 5000rpm when loads are rapidly diminishing so I think its very safe and it was good to test that worse case scenario. You could definitely develop a winter and a summer timing map or for instance one with less timing for queued up heat soaked hillclimbs.
In terms of getting the power down I think i'll still be in a good place now that I'm running the 215's and still have the linear throttle on my side which really makes it easier to regulate the throttle around the area where the boost can come surging in way too quickly with the stock pedal map. It can feel a little bit doughy in civilian driving sometimes with the pedal set up that way eg hill starting needs a lot more pedal depression than I was used too but its something you get used too and I've found it well worth it on the track.

[Sydneykid]

very very interesting... I wonder if you might be looking for less timing in summer too
it's unfortunate that you can't really data log a hillclimb run, not without upsetting scrutineers anyway

A Go Pro pointed at the instruments can give an effective data log.
But a data logger under the seat/in the glove box/in the dash, console etc is hard to find

Cheers
Gary

[sambb]

Alright next thing I'm going to tackle is removing all the trim and my forge rear 'strut' brace and look at welding in a cross brace in the same spot with a view to having the harness come off there. Just wondering what kind of materials do I need re tube diameter, thickness, plate thickness, weld or bolts it in etc?

Plan is to get an ADR 1 piece seat for a 6 point harness. Velo, Autotechnica make some and there's a Sparco which is said to have approval but no one can find the paperwork. I'll adapt it onto my stock ADR'd seat rails. The car is ADR post '05 which means its ADR'd to have an airbag seat in it. The seat i'll get will hopefully have pre '05 (non-airbag ADR) so like Gary said at least ill be as ADR'd as I can be on the way to an event. From what I've heard its only really the wrong kind of highway patrolman that would give you grief for having this kind of stuff fitted and that's if they've pulled you over for doing something silly to begin with. I mean if I'm cruising around in a seat with head wings and am wearing my harness then yeah I'd be asking for it but I'll be wearing the OE belt etc so I should be ok. I'll use a 6 pointer and just add remove all of it for events.
I was stoked when initially it seemed that RPM did a modular harness - you could buy their 6 pointer or buy their 4 pointer and separately by the crotch straps and fit them to it to turn it into a 6 pointer once you'd upgraded the seat. Schroth had a nice harness but when I emailed them they said rules don't let you do that anymore. I went back to an RPM stockist who called RPM and they said you couldn't do the 'build your 4 point harness into a 6 pointer' thing anymore because of a rule change. So that kind of sux. I could have gotten myself harnessed in my stock seat and improved things bit by bit but it seems a jump to a 6 point harness set up which demands the seat at the same time is whats going to happen. Money wise that'll be a big hit but If I don't do something while the jolt is still fresh after seeing (hearing) that nasty crash last weekend then I'm a dope.
For anyone who is interested Autotechnica (and SAAS) make recliner, with a full release from the rear, semi buckets for 4 point harnesses that have pre '05 ADR approval too if you wanted something to stay in the car more permanently and be safe for the rear occupants. You'd still need to bridge the airbag plug to use it though.
To give an idea of the potential weight savings, the standard seat and rails weighs 23kg. The base sliders and slider adjuster mech (which looks like it can be removed from the seat) couldn't weigh more than 3.5kg so the seat would be around 20kg by itself. The 1 piece seats I'm looking at weigh no more than 9kg (all FIA approved). The Autotechnica recliner I mentioned above weighs 12.5kg. I'll still need seat mounts to bolts the seat to the rails but RPM do aluminium ones which didn't feel to heavy.

[Sydneykid]

On seat belts, the FIA standard numbering for a 4 point harness (FIA 8854-1998 ) is different to a 6 point harness (FIA 8853-2016). So when a scrutineer checks the seat belt he will know how many points it's FIA approval is. But it's a "regression" check, we are only interested in ensuring that a 6 point harness is not being used with only 4 points. If the buckle has 6 attachment points (ie; the manufacturer uses the same buckle for 4, 5 and 6 point harnesses) then there is no reason to question the "progression" from 4 to 6. The crutch straps should have their own FIA labelling. This has always (for 20 years at least) been the case, I am not aware of any recent changes in that reg.

I would suggest waiting until you have the seat fitted before worrying too much about the seat belt mount. You should find that it is a lot lower than the OE seat and hence might well be OK with the 45 degree angle to the rear seat belt mounts. I'll check with our roll cage guys and confirm the harness member requirements, which is something like cold drawnseamless (CDS) or cold drawnwelded (CDW) unalloyed carbonsteel 38mm x 2.5mm or 40mm x 2.0 mm (1.5” x 0.095” or 1.6” x 0.083”) with a tensile strength of 350 N/mm2.

Be aware that HANS restraints are commonly sized for 2" shoulder straps and most harness have 3". For that reason, plus comfort, we mostly use Hybrid restraints which are 3".

Cheers
Gary

[sambb]

yeah i dont know what the go is Gary. I was at Revolution racegear Auburn 4 days ago and he said you can buy the RPM 4 pointer (3in shoulder straps) and seperately by the crotch straps to make it into a 6 pointer for $85 bucks. Schroth had a nice 6 pointer and I emailed them hoping I could run it initially as a 6 pointer and that was the first time someone mentioned there was a rule against that = no. When my new road tyres were being fitted I walked down to Revolution Racegear Brookvale and they actually called RPM HQ who said there had been a recent change and the 4 pointer could only ever be used that way, meaning I had to commit to one harness or the other. I didnt ask if the crotch strap was still for sale seperately. Maybe they have each have unique buckles now? not sure, and not sure what the rule change is they were alluding too either.

Ok yeah good point re the angle to the harness mounting points changing. I'll hang off. I figure I only really need enough money for the seat which I can just afford. The harness can be a group family thing for my birthday in Feb.

Maybe I should hoon out and get that RPM 4 pointer and crutch strap now before any supposed changes potentially kick in.

[sambb]

Ok I got the follow up. Apparently the FIA has changed a regulation that now says a harness can only be used as it is sold ie cant be 'modified' after the fact. Dont know if its due to that rule change or not, but RPM wont be selling that crotch strap anymore especially since it was dated as a 2010. He said that they did have some crotch straps at other stores but due to those dates on them they wouldn't be sold. Oh well that makes it easy - 6 point it is.

[metalhead]

Only downside with adapting it to your stock rails is that it will take longer to swap it in and out, unless you have a spare set of rails - you'll need to pull out your stock seat, take the rails off it, bolt them to your bucket seat, and then bolt it in. Whereas obviously it will be much quicker to swap the seats if you can remove the stock seat complete and bolt the bucket seat in complete without swapping rails between them.

[sambb]

yep just got disappointed this afternoon. I thought I could use the seat rails off a spare passenger seat I have but they are not common. I had a bloody spare drivers seat but chucked it with the wreck because the seat release was broken. Stupid. So I either need to find a wrecking car and get rails out of it or just make up my own and hope the cops don't throw the book at me.

[Sydneykid]

Ok I got the follow up. Apparently the FIA has changed a regulation that now says a harness can only be used as it is sold ie cant be 'modified' after the fact. Dont know if its due to that rule change or not, but RPM wont be selling that crotch strap anymore especially since it was dated as a 2010. He said that they did have some crotch straps at other stores but due to those dates on them they wouldn't be sold. Oh well that makes it easy - 6 point it is.

The 2018 wording in the FIA regs is the same as it has always been. Maybe what the effect is going forward is that the FIA is not allowing seat belt manufacturers to attach a 4 strap (FIA 8854-1998 ) certification label to a belt with a buckle that has more than 4 attachment points. But that can't be retrospective, if a belt already has the certification then it's good until that certification runs out ie; for non International events that's 5 years past the "Not Valid After" date (always 31st December). So if the belt is manufactured in 2010 but has a "Not Valid After" date of 2015 then it can be used until 31st December 2020.

I understand that the 4 point certification is overdue for updating (the 6 point is more recent due to meeting HANS requirements) but there is some debate over what that would achieve (ie; the technology is mature).

I've learnt to not overly trust retailers when it comes to interpreting regulations, they rely on their suppliers advice and that can be influenced by price, stock holding etc.

Cheers
Gary

[metalhead]

I have the 4 point harnesses with the extra space in the buckle to supposedly allow upgrading to 6 point, but Revolution Racegear in Newcastle told me when I bought them that they can't get the extra straps any more.

[sambb]

Andrew call Revolution Racegear in Auburn. The guy Ross there was pretty thorough. He said there was another store that had two crotch straps. He might be able to tell you which store has one and then you can argue the case Gary made that they are still technically valid. I'd say move on it now though as they are obviously baulking at selling them. Just say the 4 pointer was sold to you under the pretense that it could be converted to a 6'er and you are now collecting on that.