Sam's build thread

[sambb]

Bit of an update. I have some stuff in the pipeline now for going to a race sump. Still wet sump, but as far as you can go down that path with full aluminium sheet construction (that is inclined to bend in a strike and not split/rupture like the cast ones), it has a lower height to avoid ground strikes yet an extra 0.7L capacity due to its rearward wing and it has a full gated oil pickup pen.

So the story with the sump is that this particular one doesn't have the relief cut in the base to house the OEM oil/level temp sensor. The good news is that these do not input at all into the engine ECU, they only go to the cluster/instruments where oil tempis not displayed and oil level is used to bring up the low oil level chime/light on the dash. The car can run without those no worries. I'm going to weld in a bung and fit a dedicated VDO oil temp sender and have a gauge mounted in the cabin. Oil level sensing is no big deal so that wont be used and i'll use an oil pressure sender in the port that currently houses the oil pressure switch that runs to the intruments too. I think an oil pressure gauge with an alarm is a far better method.
The other thing with this sump is that you don't need to run the OEM black plastic windage tray that goes under the crank. With these sumps, that is discarded and all the oil control duties are handled by the sump. I'll also have to shorten the stock turbo oil return pipe too but that's no biggy.
The big difference though is that this sump does not have the huge amount of cast material on it that butts up against the bellhousing. The OE sump has three tapped holes for the lower 3 bellhousing bolts to go into. I had a heart attack when I discovered this thinking that the sump is not going to work. But this sump is designed this way deliberately. The full house race engines usually run girdles that preclude the use of the bottom 3 belhhousing bolts anyway even if they go to a hybrid sump and they do just fine. As Issam (the designer at iABED industries - formerly INA industries) said to me - he's been brilliant by the way, advising me on fitment etc when I didn't even buy it off him, the gearbox is held in by 5 x M10 bolts and the sump bolts are mearly token - the sump is NOT a stressed member. So i'll most likely order the bellhousing cover plate (pictured) through him if postage from Canada isn't too bad or do a dummy fit up on my spare engine and make a template myself and cut something up at work. It'll fit like the example pics to cover the otherwise exposed flywheel.
Anyway that's the plan. Tracking an engine with 120,000km on it has its risks but I'm hoping that guaranteeing that the oil system is tip top it will stay as bullet proof as its been.

[simon k]

snazzy...

[sambb]

coolest F1 turbo era (the good turbo era) doco I've seen yet. Flares, lamb chops and lab coats. About how Renault pioneered their car - first turbo F1, first car with radials. My French is no good but the visuals are awesome.

YouTube

[Sydneykid]

So here's where I rain on your parade a little Sam.

The plastic windage tray is very important, it's not there only as a baffle, its function is to removed (scrape) oil off the crank as it rotates. High rpm crankshafts create a partial vacuum behind them as they spin, which the oil hangs in. That has both aerodynamic resistance (it increases the size of the partial vacuum) and it adds effective weight to the crankshaft (the reverse of a light flywheel). Plus it effectively reduces the amount of oil in the sump. The idea of the scraper is to (as the name suggests) scrape the oil trail off the crankshaft by disrupting the partial vacuum. For engines with a chain camshaft drive we also extend the scraper around the crankshaft sprocket so the chain doesn't carry oil upwards away from the sump.

This is an early VW engine scrapper from Ishihara Johnson;


Secondly the cast alloy sump is most definitely a block stress handling measure. They more rigidly tie the engine block at the main bearing journals. As you mentioned the full house race engines run a crank girdle as an upgrade from the cast alloy sump. I wouldn't be running an engine without one or the other.

That sump design has advantages but it also has disadvantages.

Cheers
Gary

[sambb]

Thanks Gary. RE the windage tray I was having the same thought. I'd found people who were running this sump with the OE windage tray still fitted - the sump doesn't preclude the use of the windage tray its just that you can run without. So yeah I was going to run with it because if the factory does then I will if I can basically.
RE the non stressed member bit I'm not surprised you thought that. I've been switching how I feel about that minute to minute. Part of me thinks if the girdled race engines (that don't seem to tie into the bellhousing) hang together then leaving my bellhousing 'hanging' would be fine. ie its not that the bellhousing gives strength to the block is it, and that an un girdled engine without the bottom 3 bolts would be weakened? or to put it another way if I thought that the engine would be ok it was more that the bellhousing would have more stress on its other bolts - more of an issue for the gearbox if anything. But it sounds like you think that it may compromise the block which I hadn't thought of. Hmmm
Don't get me wrong I'd love to use it but I'm very bad at putting things on the car that I don't have absolute faith in. I'm a worrier in case you haven't noticed. Thanks for the heads up. Ultimately its not going to be worth it. Thinking now I'll just go ahead with the oil cooler and get a few good gauges in there and monitor things that way.

[sambb]

I just got my 215/50/15 mounted onto the 7 in enkei so that I can do some fitups and check clearances etc. It needed more than 80 psi, multiple attempts and lots of lube before one stubborn part of the sidewall went from rippled to finally cracking into place. That normal?

[Sydneykid]

We run either the standard cast alloy sump with baffles OR we go dry sump. Modern engines have pretty good sumps and they are (in general) integrated into the overall block rigidity, especially for high performance engines. For example Honda has 2 sump designs one cast alloy and the other pressed steel, the engines with the cast alloy sumps have higher rpm limits than their equivalent pressed steel sump engines.

My suggestion would be to look for a baffle insert that you can fit to your OE sump. I know Forge make one Forge Motorsport I High quality performance Motorsports parts & tuning specialists



Cheers
Gary

[Sydneykid]

I just got my 215/50/15 mounted onto the 7 in enkei so that I can do some fitups and check clearances etc. It needed more than 80 psi, multiple attempts and lots of lube before one stubborn part of the sidewall went from rippled to finally cracking into place. That normal?

Yep, I've seen over 100 psi on particularly stubborn tyres.

Cheers
Gary

[sambb]

Thanks Gary. RE the sump yeah I'll start hunting for something similar. All pretty pricey from overseas unfortunately.
RE the tyres the guy freaked me out a bit saying 'the tyre could have taken a hit' etc etc. He never went above 85psi but kept trying basically. He just gave it a bit of time and then the last little bit cracked into place. I'm hoping the tyre is fine and that maybe being a 215 on a 7in rim contributed to it.

[simon k]

We run either the standard cast alloy sump with baffles OR we go dry sump. Modern engines have pretty good sumps and they are (in general) integrated into the overall block rigidity, especially for high performance engines. For example Honda has 2 sump designs one cast alloy and the other pressed steel, the engines with the cast alloy sumps have higher rpm limits than their equivalent pressed steel sump engines.

My suggestion would be to look for a baffle insert that you can fit to your OE sump. I know Forge make one Forge Motorsport I High quality performance Motorsports parts & tuning specialists



Cheers
Gary

I was looking at these too - but then I started looking at just the little teflon flaps that can be bought on their own and make my own plates because monumental tightarse... RCM Anti Surge Flaps for Baffled Sumps and Baffle Plates in Viton 75 | eBay

but I don't think I've found any actual reports of oil starvation in these engines, is it really an issue?

[seangti]

but I don't think I've found any actual reports of oil starvation in these engines, is it really an issue?

Yeah I've not seen or heard of any starvation issues, though have installed a forge sump on mine, just like the one in the image. You could probably find a local machinist who could build baffles into a factory sump and come out pretty cost effective. Dare I say that oil heat is more likely to cause issues over starvation as our sumps aren't overly deep.

[seangti]

So the story with the sump is that this particular one doesn't have the relief cut in the base to house the OEM oil/level temp sensor. The good news is that these do not input at all into the engine ECU, they only go to the cluster/instruments where oil tempis not displayed and oil level is used to bring up the low oil level chime/light on the dash. The car can run without those no worries. I'm going to weld in a bung and fit a dedicated VDO oil temp sender and have a gauge mounted in the cabin. Oil level sensing is no big deal so that wont be used and i'll use an oil pressure sender in the port that currently houses the oil pressure switch that runs to the intruments too. I think an oil pressure gauge with an alarm is a far better method..

Hi Sam,

In the early days of the red polo I somehow burnt through the oil level sensor wire at a track day...turbo heat, bad cable routing, who knows. But anyway, it was traced to shorting that wire down the back of the engine. That short also resulted in loss of power steering and ABS (I can't confirm ABS didn't work, but can confirm power steering didn't, lol). If not already done, try disconnect the sump sensor and drive around to see if it causes any unintended grief.

That sump looks awesome. Is the turbo oil return location the same?? I thought it want into the sump on a vertical plain, not horizontal. Might need a different oil return line as it may stuff up the orientation of the line... But I'm a bit shady on that orientation.

[Sydneykid]

Thanks Gary. RE the sump yeah I'll start hunting for something similar. All pretty pricey from overseas unfortunately.

$US285 retail, say, $A400 shipped, in a motorsport sense that's cheap.

Cheers
Gary

[sambb]

Simon I'm an equivalent tight arse and was going to do the same thing and weld baffles but everyone I spoke to said welding a cast sump that's had oil in it for 12 years is not going to go well, so either a virgin sump would be needed or buy one already done. Maybe my INA one could be made to work by welding really thick billet plate along the bellhousing side and then tying it into the rest of the sump but that's a bridge too far. I'll just sell it to someone who's prepared to do that and go the forge route probably. Its in the classifieds if you want to have a crack Simon - cheaper for you too. Simon in the classifieds link you'll see that the 800 buck version of the sump pictured has the billet flange on it tapped for the bellhousing bolts. Subsequent incarnations of the sump did away with this as the designer believed the sump was not a stressed member and people couldn't run girdles that way. So it is feasible that the end of the sump could be flanged better.
Yeah Sean unplugging the sump sensor had no ill effects other than generating an oil level alarm on the dash (visual and chime). Shorting pins 1 and 3 was meant to kill the dash alarm entirely but I found it only killed the audible alarm and every second time I started the car I'd get the light. I tried copying the resistance values of the level sensing and that didn't work either. I was going to start looking into dash/instruments ecu recoding with VCDS as many in the US had had success with I but I didn't investigate that further as I've have now parked the idea of that particular sump.
Yeah once I sell this sump I'll count my pennies and grab a forge or the like. Just wonder if they modify factory castings or do their own in good knows where with what quality material. Might actually be cheaper to buy an OE sump from VW and weld that.
But yeah for the time being I'll look after temps with Louis' Mocal/oil cooler kit and do the sump after that. I'm going to look at running it but retain the heat exchanger system. That'll force me to run a remote oil filter setup as it all wont fit in a stack against the fans, but I think that might be the way cos I don't want to be trundling around in traffic with 80 degree oil. The cooler will go in where the side mount was and it'll be blanked off to airflow until I track it so hopefully that'll not let it run too cold. If I could run without the heat exchanger I'd prefer that but don't think I'll be able to. With the amount of short trips I do the oil would never come up.

[seangti]

Good to hear about the sump and oil sensor not causing much grief.

I'm yet to fit my oil cooler, it's on the to do list, just haven't found the time and need the car daily. I'm leaning towards paying a workshop just to get it done. My plan is to delete the heat exchanger, but being in QLD isn't as much an issue.

Where would you mount the remote oil filter mount? Not much room down there and I'm apprehensive to have more joins in the oil lines...