simon's learning what to do with the polo thread

[sambb]

Yep nice one. I'd much prefer it nice and solid like yours rather than using the Speciality shims which just don't look rock solid. I was very tempted to use the 1/2in but would have to have flared the guards massively if I was ever to run 215 rears so used the 3/8's. I went from 5mm toe in total or something like that to zero toe and then out again to 2mm to out. I'd be surprised if it doesn't feel way better now for you. Although you probably have double the camber at the rear compared to the fronts now which might dull the overall effect.

[simon k]

I agree, the 1/2" plates are a bit too thick, but give you good insurance for fiddling around with things later. Obviously I'm glad I had them sitting there to experiment with

I've ordered a little digital protractor so I can make a wheel mount for it to measure the camber. Looking at the car sitting in the carpark is deceptive, but there isn't much extra.

It was 'different' on my usual test corners on the way to work, more dynamic on turn-in and tended to lift the inside rear earlier which is what I think we expected

Coilover sleeves arrived on Friday and VWThunder's KMac strut tops & springs are sitting at the freight depot for me to pick up. Next track day is on 11th Nov so if I get my act together it might be all sorted by then

[sambb]

ah you got those - sweet. Those tops will give you some proper caster and camber and looked like a pretty good spring rate too. Will go well enough to get a lot out of semis after that.

[simon k]

ah you got those - sweet. Those tops will give you some proper caster and camber and looked like a pretty good spring rate too. Will go well enough to get a lot out of semis after that.

here's hoping... I've just come inside from fixing the gear selector linkage on the mini so I can drive it to work while I pull the Polo's struts out, I feel like it'll be more than a relaxed weekend job

[Sydneykid]

Yep nice one. I'd much prefer it nice and solid like yours rather than using the Speciality shims which just don't look rock solid. I was very tempted to use the 1/2in but would have to have flared the guards massively if I was ever to run 215 rears so used the 3/8's. I went from 5mm toe in total or something like that to zero toe and then out again to 2mm to out. I'd be surprised if it doesn't feel way better now for you. Although you probably have double the camber at the rear compared to the fronts now which might dull the overall effect.

The shims are sandwiched so it doesn't really matter how "solid" they are. As long as the bolts don't loosen they are trapped. I've used them for more than 15 years on all sorts of cars, many more higher powered, with much bigger wheel/tyres and way heavier than a Polo. We did a 12 Hour at Bathurst with a set in Swift, followed by 2 x 6 Hours, one at Sandown and one at Eastern Creek, then a 2 Hour at Philip Island. Then they did 100,000 k’s in a Swift road car.

Cheers
Gary

[Sydneykid]

here's hoping... I've just come inside from fixing the gear selector linkage on the mini so I can drive it to work while I pull the Polo's struts out, I feel like it'll be more than a relaxed weekend job

Swapping front struts, should take longer to jack it up, put the stands under and take the wheels of than actually swapping the legs

Cheers
Gary

[sambb]

Thanks Gary. Good to know. I feel much better about using them then.

[simon k]

Swapping front struts, should take longer to jack it up, put the stands under and take the wheels of than actually swapping the legs

Cheers
Gary

dunno Gary... I see it going more like this:

1. jack up & put stands under
2. remove wheels
3. f*ck about compressing the spring
4. use previously made special tool to expand bearing housing upright thing
5. give up on special tool and use chisel to expand bearing housing upright thing
6. remove the strut trying not to damage mudguard
7. repeat for other side
8. disassemble struts (incl. remove inner from body)
9. make a welding heat sink insert for strut body
10. cut off spring seat
11. machine smooth
12. trial fit coilover sleeve and assemble with strut top
13. disassemble and second guess self
14. prime (weld-through) strut body
15. tack weld sleeve
16. reassemble
17. disassemble and second guess self
18. reassemble and decide was OK
19. disassemble and second guess self
20. reassemble and decide was OK
21. disassemble and second guess self
22. reassemble and decide was OK
23. disassemble and second guess self
24. reassemble and decide was OK
25. disassemble and second guess self
26. bite bullet, weld sleeve
27. repeat for other strut body from (10)
28. paint strut bodies
29. reassemble, marvel at how cool it looks
30. install in car, fiddle around with springs and seats
31. put wheels back on
32. drop car on ground
33. ride height is wrong
34. try to figure out the best way to adjust and make it even
35. jack up again and adjust
36. repeat from (32) as required
37. go for a drive, marvel at awesome handling
38. post a message on VWW saying "that was easy...", trying not to bleed on keyboard

[Sydneykid]

My method suggestions;
1 & 2 OK
3 Remove old struts and strut tops
4 Replace with new struts and strut tops already prepared
5 Reverse 1 & 2
6 Take for a drive

The ride height adjustment is 0.9 to 1, so if you want to lower it 10 mm (at the wheel) then lower the spring seat 9 mm. You really don't have to drive it before you set the ride height, it will settle around 5 mm so set it up 5 mm higher than where you want it before you drive it. Just roll it back and forth a few times to remove any camber jacking. Give it around 1,000 k's before you do any fine tuning of the ride height.

When setting up the sleeves on the strut firstly compare the free height of the springs. Then locate the middle of the thread around
where the OE spring seat would be allowing for differences in the spring free height. You should have 75 mm of thread adjustment so it's not that critical where the spring seat is located. Just make them the same side to side, it makes it easier to guess/equalise the ride height.

Cheers
Gary

[simon k]

My method suggestions;
1 & 2 OK
3 Remove old struts and strut tops
4 Replace with new struts and strut tops already prepared
5 Reverse 1 & 2
6 Take for a drive

ahh.. yeah, except the Bilsteins are already in the car and that's what I'm going to weld the sleeves to... so they've gotta come out, be modified and go back in

The ride height adjustment is 0.9 to 1, so if you want to lower it 10 mm (at the wheel) then lower the spring seat 9 mm. You really don't have to drive it before you set the ride height, it will settle around 5 mm so set it up 5 mm higher than where you want it before you drive it. Just roll it back and forth a few times to remove any camber jacking. Give it around 1,000 k's before you do any fine tuning of the ride height.

When setting up the sleeves on the strut firstly compare the free height of the springs. Then locate the middle of the thread around
where the OE spring seat would be allowing for differences in the spring free height. You should have 75 mm of thread adjustment so it's not that critical where the spring seat is located. Just make them the same side to side, it makes it easier to guess/equalise the ride height.

Cheers
Gary

gotcha, cheers

[simon k]

well it did turn out to be a bit of a f*ckabout - they're just such a bastard of a thing to get in and out... I guess my main problem is that I try to do it without taking the balljoint out of the bottom arm and undoing the inner CV. I sweat and swear and finally give up and undo them and it's fine after that

I basically spent all day Saturday doing the drivers side, then realised on Sunday that I'd forgotten the top spring collar so took it half way apart again to put that in. Then when I was assembling the passenger side I realised I had put one bit in wrong so took the drivers side apart again to fix that. So by Sunday night I had the drivers side in and correct and the passenger side ready to install. I finished the passenger side on Monday night, then last night I put the wheels back on and evened up the camber by eye - the ride height was good with a thumb width of thread left at the bottom of the sleeve on both sides so did well there.

But! before I went to bed last night I made a camber measuring tool, I'd ebayed the little magnetic inclinometer a couple of weeks ago and it came in the mail today. So I can use this to measure and adjust the camber and caster.



check out my fully sick camber - and filthy bonnet & windscreen


I'm not very impressed with the KMac strut tops, the retainer/clamping plates are only ~6mm aluminium and way too soft for the job they're doing. There's a torque spec they're meant to be done up to, but being so thin they bend really easily. The bottom plate on both sides were quite badly out of shape. Obviously once they've bent once, they can be straightened but they're just going to bend again. One of the studs was stripped as well, but it's not surprising because they're really soft threads - definitely not high tensile. There are also little triangular washer plates to go under the nuts, they're soft aluminum too so doing up the nuts rips them to bits. I reckon I'll CAD up the retainer plates and re-make them in steel

I'm measuring/calculating caster and camber now...

[sambb]

Nice one Simon. Stoked you got them in. That camber looks like 3 deg. neg. to me. Was your take on the correct orientation of the top plates correct do you think? The good thing once you have coilovers is that getting the struts out again is easy. You just wind any preload out of the springs making knocking the bases out of the hubs straight forward. With my strut domes cut off, once that's done I only have to rattle off the damper shafts top nut and I can extract the whole strut without even moving the alignment of the top plates. Just something to consider if you feel like doing even more work with a grinder. Doubtful you do (believe me I've been there), but it does make things very straight forward later. Well done though. Keen to see how it feels for you once you get all the angles locked in.

[simon k]

Well my camber is even on both sides at .... 3.1° - you're a bit of a smartarse aren't you Sam! and yep, the texta markings on the plates were definitely wrong side

Caster is 4.9° on the drivers side and a little bit undecided on the passenger side. Caster and camber on the passenger side were a bit off on that side (2.3° and 3.7° respectively) so I had another look at the balljoint. There's a far bit of adjustment available down there so levering the rear out as far as it would go put the camber at my 3.1° without moving the top, I didn't remeasure the caster because it's an hour past my bedtime!

My measuring jigger is a champion though, the little ebay doover has an 'absolute' and 'relative' setting, so camber is absolute, and caster is relative from lock to lock (I just did 1 full turn of the wheel either way). Well worth a little bit of steel from my scrap bin and $15. I'll book in for a proper alignment on Friday - the rack isn't very well centered after I had both subframes out

[sambb]

Stoked for you man. Hadn't heard anything since you started and I was fearing the worst but it looks like you nailed it. You will loose the inside of those fronts pretty quickly with that much camber and a touch of toe out wont help either, but who cares it'll corner great when you lean on it. So you now have stiffer front springs, adjustable ride height, gobs of camber and caster etc. Time for a beer I'd say! I haven't used my gauge for caster measurements either. I think Gary said measure 20 degrees each side of straight ahead (40 degree total sweep) from memory. Keen to hear a report after it gets driven with spirit.

[simon k]

thanks Sam unless I need help or advice I tend to keep to myself till the job is done...

It's a lot better on my usual corners on the way to work, though I had a couple of cars in front of me on the sharp right hander... I did notice it being bumpier than it was, and the "fingers between the tyre and mudguard" test show the drivers side is a few mm lower than the passenger.

As an added bonus, it doesn't pull to the left anymore! it's been pulling to the left since I did the balljoints - my assumption was due to inconsistent camber or caster. I'd left it as is because I knew I was going to do this job - sorted!

edit 1:Question about removing the struts, do you undo the ball joint and driveshaft then bash on the carrier, or is there a cleverer way to do it?

edit 2: measuring caster, check this out... https://disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/...ent%5B1%5D.pdf - as per page 7, the angle used is irrelevant as long as it is known and consistent... it also points out that the method I used to measure my caster wasn't checking caster at all, it was only checking the camber change. I just happened to get a number that sounded right-ish. If I plug in my 4.9° and assume one turn of the steering wheel is 20° then my caster is 7° - that'd be great, but assuming the angle of 1 turn of the wheel is obviously silly. I'll measure the angle tonight and calculate....