Topping out at Stage 2+?

[jimmedy]

So, yet again forgive me for invading the Polo lounge but nobody else is doing much exciting with an A1, so I'm just going to pretend I'm one of you guys with 4 ring badge if that's cool

I'm posting while I slowly die from impatience waiting for my day on the hoist at Canberra VW Centre to go Stage 2+

As per my sig block, I've got APR Stage 1, VWR CAI and HP DSG remap.

At home, in boxes, I have a Wagner Tuning FMIC (VAG 1.4 TSI Competition Intercooler Kit - Wagner Tuning UK), a set of Bilstein B14 coilovers, a GFB DV+ and some Whiteline front control arm bushings with a bit of + caster.

CVWC have my Milltek DP and HP sways sitting there, and we're just waiting on my cat-back to make it to Canberra and do my install day. The wait is partially on me for going with the resonated cat-back which had to come ex-UK via Brisbane, but even so it's taking a lot longer than they said

I'm just wondering, that once I get all this fitted, if I'm just about topped out for my upgrade path...?

The 1.4 TFSI is pretty much end of life now, and while I'm pleased I got one of the later CTHE engines and missed the oil guzzling dramas of the CAVE's (mine hasn't used so much as a drop of oil in 25,000k's), it's evident tuner development has moved on to the newer engines.

I have no appetite for going Water/Meth.

I've read about the LOBA LO270 hybrid turbo with interest, but I think I'd need to be living a lot closer to APR HQ in Brisbane or pick another tuning house to really go down that path because I feel like I'd need some trial and error ECU customisation to get the most out of it. (The other issue seems to be actually finding one!)

Okada coil packs might be interesting too but I'm not sure on the bang for buck I'll find there (I mean, unless I start getting issues running Stage 2+ with my current parts list). Had the AU$ still been above parity with the US$, maybe.

The only other thing I have on my roadmap is brakes. I will probably get the 6 pot Tarox kit when my finances recover from all my recent purchases (Tarox Brake Kit – Audi A1 (All models with at least 288mm discs) – Compact – KMVW0986 - TAROX Online Store )
But then.... I think I'm done? In terms of what I can get hold of easily and get reasonable support with anyway.
Is there anything I've neglected between what I've opted for and the few things I've tossed in the too-hard basket?

I think I've got most of what's on the market and still going to leave me with a street legal daily drive... but happy for anyone to point out anything I might have overlooked.

[gavs]

Well, in reality your are just a polo owner with an over-priced 4 ring badge on the front of your polo

If you have a read of the sticky I posted yesterday it should give you some insight as to upgrade paths for the engine side of your A1. As you have the CTHE engine, things should eb a lot less prone to premature failure, but in regards to the coil-packs as lucifer said, it's not really the coil-pack that is the problem, it's the position of the spark plug relative to the injector spray pattern so being a CTHE, it should have the updated, shorter spark plugs therefore not requiring the stronger (and eye-bleedingly expensive) Okada coil packs. If you really wanted to go harder then it's a custom turbo and tune setup I guess and I don't know what the APR stage 2 tune puts out but I'm hearing 180kw / 240hp from a competitor..... that might be just about enough in a 1200kg car with such a short wheelbase..... Maybe....

[Lucas_R]

If you decide to go down the Loba LO270 route, then you will be wanting a custom tune from Mark at Recode in southern Sydney. He has some of the fastest modern VW's in Australia. Home

[jimmedy]

Well, in reality your are just a polo owner with an over-priced 4 ring badge on the front of your polo

Oh, I'm in no denial about that at all! I weighed up the differences and it wasn't the 4 rings themselves, but a lot was the interior and just the slightly more individual look. I like that it's uncommon on the road and I paid in part for that, and I then took it further with mods like the tail lights and wheels to make it even more distinctive.
All this 'exclusivity' is balanced out by having the internals shared by a much more common platform so at least I can tune it. And here I am on a Polo forum

My only regret is that they stopped bringing in the 3 door with the MY12/13 year! I never use my back seat, I could have done with the ~100kg weight saving!

If you have a read of the sticky I posted yesterday it should give you some insight as to upgrade paths for the engine side of your A1. As you have the CTHE engine, things should eb a lot less prone to premature failure, but in regards to the coil-packs as lucifer said, it's not really the coil-pack that is the problem, it's the position of the spark plug relative to the injector spray pattern so being a CTHE, it should have the updated, shorter spark plugs therefore not requiring the stronger (and eye-bleedingly expensive) Okada coil packs. If you really wanted to go harder then it's a custom turbo and tune setup I guess and I don't know what the APR stage 2 tune puts out but I'm hearing 180kw / 240hp from a competitor..... that might be just about enough in a 1200kg car with such a short wheelbase..... Maybe....

Yeah, my issue there now is the 'sunk' cost with APR I guess, if I move to another tune to go beyond their Stage 2 that's money gone.

And, to be fair, I haven't got a bad thing to say about them either - I've had a couple of phone calls and emails with Guy_H peppering him with questions and he's been more than helpful, as have the awesome guys here @ Canberra VWC.

This all only becomes relevant if I do decide to push on beyond my posted upgrade list, which I'm not sure I have the time and money for.

I've come to understand that APR Stage 2 on the 1.4 TFSI is just Stage 1 with the 'test pipe' file. They're one and the same thing.

And with the Mk7 to take to stage 3+, the new 1.8 ECU to crack and tune, and plenty else going on, I can't really blame APR for not wanting to push an older engine to new places for, well, potentially just 1 customer!

It's good to know about the spark changes in the CTHE, I hadn't got to reading that yet. I knew there were some changes to piston rings and other things that I can understand may have played a part in resolving the oil issues. Guess the spark changes are just a further bonus!

The thing I love about this car / engine is what the supercharger does for low end performance that makes it behave like a car with much higher displacement!

I was fascinated by twincharging ever since learning about the Lancia Delta S4 as a school kid, and I don't really care that the only modern production implementation is a 1.4L, I just had to own one at some point in my life!

My first car was a diesel and my next could very well be electric, so I'm having fun

[spare]

Hi Jimmedy,

This thread is pretty relevant to me as I'm in a very similar boat.

I have a CTHE engine Polo GTI and have also gone the APR Path.

Currently have the Stage 1 Tune, and HP/APR Intercooler installed, and then booked for 1st week of November is the HP CAI and HP full exhaust, (Both of which have been discontinued for a while now...) as well as the upgraded exhaust file.

I think the biggest factor in the Polo not having much of an upgrade path, and it ultimately being discontinued, is the fact that the Polo is not available in the USA.

Let me know what you think of the GFB DV+ once it's installed!

Keep in touch once you get the Stage 2 done, and likewise I will too.

[jimmedy]

Hi Jimmedy,

This thread is pretty relevant to me as I'm in a very similar boat.

I have a CTHE engine Polo GTI and have also gone the APR Path.

Currently have the Stage 1 Tune, and HP/APR Intercooler installed, and then booked for 1st week of November is the HP CAI and HP full exhaust, (Both of which have been discontinued for a while now...) as well as the upgraded exhaust file.

I think the biggest factor in the Polo not having much of an upgrade path, and it ultimately being discontinued, is the fact that the Polo is not available in the USA.

Let me know what you think of the GFB DV+ once it's installed!

Keep in touch once you get the Stage 2 done, and likewise I will too.

Hey spare,

Good to see someone else is along for the ride with the new engine!

I finally got the call from CVWC last Friday to say my cat-back had arrived and to tee up some hoist time.
Unfortunately, despite discussing it previously it slipped their mind I had the FMIC and the coilovers at home and I'll need maybe 6 hours or more labour all up, so I have to wait til the next Monday, 26th, for my 'Stage 2' day.

I'll book an alignment for Tuesday morning if I can, then take it out for a decent shakedown, because on the 29th I'm driving from Canberra to Melbourne via the Snowy Mountains... so my exhaust and springs will still be settling I guess. It's not ideal... but I wanted it all done before this trip.

Good point about the Polo in the USA! Same is true of the A1 I think. Does make sense why so much of the development for this platform came out of Brisbane and was co-opted by APR internationally!

Out of interest how did you get the HP IC and Exhaust? Have you had them stored for ages or someone over in WA had them on a shelf?

I'm not bothered in hindsight, after hearing they were discontinued I really hammered down on the research and I'm really happy with the Wagner FMIC on paper, and of course you can't go wrong with a full Milltek system, despite the cost. But if everything had of been on the shelf in Bris a couple months back I very well may have 'drunk the koolade' and just gone HP/APR everything. My final result should be an interesting mix!

[The_Hawk]

I'll be watching this a little bit too, I've got the CAVE in a Golf running an APR stage 1 but keep wondering what's next but of course am mindful of that engine. It's never missed a beat and has been down the drag strip and around WSID and Wakefield Park a couple of times... oh and the Cooma 1000.

I've got a Forge CAI and keeping thinking about either the S3 intercooler upgrade or a front mount, but the real hurdle has been the exhaust (although I haven't looked into it in a long while). The issue was that no one made a downpipe with the required heat shields, everything else is easy enough. Is there the same issue for the Polo/A1?

[jimmedy]

but the real hurdle has been the exhaust (although I haven't looked into it in a long while). The issue was that no one made a downpipe with the required heat shields, everything else is easy enough. Is there the same issue for the Polo/A1?

You're the first person I've seen mention heat shields; given I read mostly Polo/A1/Fabia threads.
The exhausts (with DP) I've been looking at all claim to just bolt on. (And I'm hoping it bolts on perfectly next Monday so my already hefty bill doesn't climb any further north!) If there's any additional shielding on the Polo platform it's not mentioned.

I talked to the CVWC guys when I was tossing up what to do, and mentioned exhausts, their general assessment was you get what you pay for, and if there's only a couple of hundred $ in it, that can be sometimes soaked up in the labour for a system that doesn't fit well out of the box.

They mentioned they've seen Janspeed, Supersprint, Cobra etc come through over the years and some fit better than others. If it's half the price of a Milltek then maybe it's not a big deal to fiddle around and get it to sit right under the car. But if it's $200-$300 difference between brands but the cheaper one takes another 2 hours labour to get it mounted, you might as well have bought the better one.

You raised my interest though, I Googled a few variations on 'golf 1.4 twin charged downpipe' and there's not much love out there for you guys

[The_Hawk]

You raised my interest though, I Googled a few variations on 'golf 1.4 twin charged downpipe' and there's not much love out there for you guys

It's a small market it seems, nothing in the US so no love from there, but if you look for parts for a Scirocco you can get lucky with parts from the UK since they got the twin charger in that form. Even then it's not smooth sailing since all the pipe work can be very different on intercoolers, exhausts and intakes. The S3 should be fine (and nice and stealth). But why mod a 118TSI Golf over just getting a GTI? In Australia the answer is because that's the only way you can buy the Cabriolet

For me, I'd love a new exhaust but want to do full downpipe back so have been holding out. (also funding bounces between available and not ).

My GFB DV+ arrived today so I'll have something to install when I get a few moments spare.

What's actually in a Stage II upgrade anyway?

[jimmedy]

What's actually in a Stage II upgrade anyway?

Took me a while to get a handle on that myself....
Stage 2 seems to be a catch-all for everything between the Stage 1 tune but short of any changes to the turbo or the engine internals (no new pistons or anything).

So full exhaust, intake, intercooler + ECU is roughly Stage 2.

Bigger turbo, pistons, fuel pumps etc are moving into Stage 3.

With APR on the twincharged, the Stage 2 software doesn't change as such, it's just a setting to 'desensitise' the air sensor so the decreased back pressure from the downpipe doesn't confuse the engine and make it run lean.

I'm vaguely aware that some of the other tuners might do 'more' with Stage 2, get more aggressive with the timing or whatever. Others who've been here a long time like Gavs and LucasR are much more knowledgeable on those.

[The_Hawk]

Sounds interesting, what's the power/torque increase for a stage II? give or take?

I'm wondering if the intercooler and intake alone would provide much of the same benefit anyway in reducing heat soak and maintaining power on a stage I?

[gavs]

It largely depends on the tuner Aaron, the new tune I'm hoping to get installed next month when I get some time is around the 180kw mark in stage 2 form, I'm not sure what apr offer.

[The_Hawk]

I haven't looked into it just get gavs so don't know. I figure I want to to some supporting mods before I do much else.

That and intercooling will help with Australian temps and exhaust will... well sound more awesome


I should do some videos with sounds of the intake with and without the tune switched on then some comparisons with the DV installed.

mmmmmm:

[spare]

Good point about the Polo in the USA! Same is true of the A1 I think. Does make sense why so much of the development for this platform came out of Brisbane and was co-opted by APR internationally!

Out of interest how did you get the HP IC and Exhaust? Have you had them stored for ages or someone over in WA had them on a shelf?

I'm not bothered in hindsight, after hearing they were discontinued I really hammered down on the research and I'm really happy with the Wagner FMIC on paper, and of course you can't go wrong with a full Milltek system, despite the cost. But if everything had of been on the shelf in Bris a couple months back I very well may have 'drunk the koolade' and just gone HP/APR everything. My final result should be an interesting mix!

Basically just after I got the tune done around Feb this year, I noticed that some of the parts had started dropping off the site. So a little bit after that I got into contact with APR Australia trying to chase the Intercooler as at that point that's as far as I wanted to go (but you know how it is with the modifying bug), and they suggested for me to try a few workshops which they had done recent shipments out to.

So I done just that, called a few of them, and got lucky, someone had an Intercooler for a customer that was meant to get it installed over Christmas, but had to pull out for one reason or another.

Then a few weeks ago I decided I wanted to go full stage 2, and was all ready to go with the other brands to complete the upgrade (Milltek exhaust, VWR intake) but thought I'd try the quick call around "just in case". So started phoning some workshops on the east coast just from the APR Dealer list page, and then got lucky again when I came across an unused HP/APR Turbo Back system, and a used (only a few months old) HP/APR CAI!

Just got the call about 2 hours ago, from the delivery guys saying it's being dropped off tomorrow morning!

The Milltek is meant to be an absolute work of art though, so I would have gladly paid for one of those bad boys. The HP exhaust, the official writeup says: "The system incorporates a 200 Cell Metal Catalyst compliant to Euro IV emission standards with a built in heat shield to protect delicate engine bay components from radiant exhaust heat." which I'm not sure if is a standard thing with the other exhausts or not?

[jimmedy]

Sounds interesting, what's the power/torque increase for a stage II? give or take?

I'm wondering if the intercooler and intake alone would provide much of the same benefit anyway in reducing heat soak and maintaining power on a stage I?

It's a bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' question.

Back when APR carried a lot more kit for these engines, they had some more dyno graphs and general info on the respective product pages.
I didn't save any of them at the time now they're hard to find. But they'd post a dyno for example of runs with:
Stage 1 tune
Stage 1 tune + CAI
Stage 1 tune + CAI + IC

All these bits (and bits from different brands) interact with each other in interesting ways..
CAI might give you.. I dunno.. for example's sake, 10kW on top of your Stage 1 tune.
IC might also give you 10kw on a Stage 1 tune.
But combining CAI+IC might give you 22kW because the sum is greater than its parts, or, they could give you 18kW because sometimes life sucks and you get diminishing returns :p

I didn't dyno my car before I went stage 1, so I'm judging each of my upgrades by the 'feels good' / 'sounds good' factor when I put my foot down

Your point on heat soak is spot on though. Even it it were for little to no power gain, the CAI and IC are going to keep your engine healthier if you're driving in a spirited fashion during our summers.