CAM chain tensioners failing..... TSI engines.

[tigger73]

I suspect that the chain tensioner issues which results in catastrophic engine failures will be covered under warranty even outside of the standard 3 year warranty period. I think it comes under general consumer law in that the average consumer could reasonably expect the life of the engine to be more than 60,000km / 3 years when driven normally and serviced regularly according to the service schedule.

It's probably not unreasonable to expect the engine in a modern car to last 10-12 years and 240-250,000km without major work (besides oil changes and regular servicing).

Now I'm no legal expert but if VW is replacing engines outside warranty (which I believe is the case?) it can only be for legal or marketing reasons.

[Suffolk]

Update! Cars been @ VW all day and they said after investigation it was the Wastegate rattle not Tensioner failure. Will see if the sound disappears after clip install.

[tigger73]

Update! Cars been @ VW all day and they said after investigation it was the Wastegate rattle not Tensioner failure. Will see if the sound disappears after clip install.

That was a very rattly waste gate. I'm guessing they're going for the cheap fix first.

[ryno_07]

I suspect that the chain tensioner issues which results in catastrophic engine failures will be covered under warranty even outside of the standard 3 year warranty period. I think it comes under general consumer law in that the average consumer could reasonably expect the life of the engine to be more than 60,000km / 3 years when driven normally and serviced regularly according to the service schedule.

It's probably not unreasonable to expect the engine in a modern car to last 10-12 years and 240-250,000km without major work (besides oil changes and regular servicing).

Now I'm no legal expert but if VW is replacing engines outside warranty (which I believe is the case?) it can only be for legal or marketing reasons.

I'd like 110% confirmation on that cause at the moment I'm not driving my car in fear of VW not paying to fix my totalled engine if it happens. At the moment they are covering to fix the rattle upon start up (suspected tensioner)

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[Suffolk]

Yes correct! I don't think its the wastegate either, considering another mechanic not apprentice said it was the tensioner. Will see what happens.... to be continued

[ido09s]

I suspect that the chain tensioner issues which results in catastrophic engine failures will be covered under warranty even outside of the standard 3 year warranty period. I think it comes under general consumer law in that the average consumer could reasonably expect the life of the engine to be more than 60,000km / 3 years when driven normally and serviced regularly according to the service schedule.

It's probably not unreasonable to expect the engine in a modern car to last 10-12 years and 240-250,000km without major work (besides oil changes and regular servicing).

Now I'm no legal expert but if VW is replacing engines outside warranty (which I believe is the case?) it can only be for legal or marketing reasons.

Quoted for truth

As i have said previously. A little thing called 'fit for purpose' comes into play when something fails prematurely wether within the warranty period or outside the warranty period.

The way i see it car manufacturers imply how long parts should last by offering a warranty based on klms and not time periods. If they offer a 5 year, unlimited klm warranty they are implying that the car should last for life and therefore i feel they should fix the car for life when something major like a timing chain or gearbox fails

If your timing chain tensioner is 10 years old, but has only travelled 25,000klms they would probably be liable to fix it as an engine and its components should last a lot longer than 25,000klms, and again their warranty period implies that.

I am surprised that car manufacturers havent caught onto this and changed their warranty terms

[ryno_07]

Hey guys,

Well, VW found that it was the timing chain/tensioner that was causing the rattle in my car and they have replaced it, but i am having another problem. Sometimes on cold starts the idle is jerky and rough, the revs fluctuate between about 1000 and 1200 rpm and after about 20-30 seconds it runs fine. The drivability of the car is unaffected and no lights are showing up either.

I have taken it back to VW and they kept it for two nights to try a cold start and they could not replicate the problem. I received it back and low and behold it's still doing it. Not all the time though, sporadically. I have since spoken to VW again and have booked it in to see if they can find what the problem is, but thought i might ask on here too? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks.

[Transporter]

Quoted for truth

As i have said previously. A little thing called 'fit for purpose' comes into play when something fails prematurely wether within the warranty period or outside the warranty period.

The way i see it car manufacturers imply how long parts should last by offering a warranty based on klms and not time periods. If they offer a 5 year, unlimited klm warranty they are implying that the car should last for life and therefore i feel they should fix the car for life when something major like a timing chain or gearbox fails

If your timing chain tensioner is 10 years old, but has only travelled 25,000klms they would probably be liable to fix it as an engine and its components should last a lot longer than 25,000klms, and again their warranty period implies that.

I am surprised that car manufacturers havent caught onto this and changed their warranty terms

Why would they? If the state 5 years unlimited km warranty, that's what they mean 5 years and during the first 5 years you can do unlimited km and your car get repaired for free. The 5 years and 1 months and you're out of warranty regardless of km travelled. The components perish over the time, and other stress factors like vibrations come into play as well, simple like that.

I'm surprised that they even honour the warranty outside of the 3 years. Why say that you have 3 years warranty and then some smart aleck comes and say "hey that's not right this thing should last longer and it must be fixed under the warranty"?

I know that the younger generations want everything now, everything cheap and top notch quality, but I'm sorry it doesn't work like that.

There are so many low quality products because many people don't want to pay and basically force the manufacturers to cut corners, skimp on quality. After all, they make what markets buy. If the most people keep their car for 5 years, why would they make them to last 10 years?

That of course doesn't apply to those with the failing tensioner in their engine still under the warranty.

[Diesel_vert]

Unlike timing belts, timing chains are expected to last the life of the car - though obviously, some vehicle manufacturers are better at preventing premature timing chain issues than others.

Volkswagen have admitted to German magazine AutoBild that there have been faults with the manufacturing process, and that Volkswagen have offered goodwill repairs to all affected EA211 TSI engines - initially on a pro rata basis up to 6 years/200 000km, then ex gratia without limits on time or distance (under growing pressure from AutoBild and consumers) - on the condition the vehicle was serviced as per the manufacturer's requirements.

I don't know how this affects local consumers, but I recall (maybe?) reading on this forum that Volkswagen have indeed covered the full cost of repairs for some consumers in Australia as well.

It is certainly worth chasing up with your local dealer (who may not know about the goodwill offer) and the Australian head office if your vehicle is affected by this issue.


Sources (articles are in German - use Google/Bing/Babylon to translate):

08/03/2012 - Worn out timing chains on the 1.4 TSI may cause serious engine damage
22/03/2012 - Consumers report more instances of timing chain problems
16/04/2012 - Volkswagen set to broaden goodwill repair measures?
26/04/2012 - Volkswagen to repair all EA111 1.2 & 1.4 TSI engines ex gratia
17/01/2013 - The return of the timing belt
31/05/2013 - Consumers still paying for repairs

As i have said previously. A little thing called 'fit for purpose' comes into play when something fails prematurely wether within the warranty period or outside the warranty period.

If your timing chain tensioner is 10 years old, but has only travelled 25,000klms they would probably be liable to fix it as an engine and its components should last a lot longer than 25,000klms, and again their warranty period implies that.

I am surprised that car manufacturers havent caught onto this and changed their warranty terms

I imagine some of the details would need to be thrashed out in court (if it gets that far) regarding what constitutes a reasonable period or distance, what constitutes components that fail from wear & tear as opposed to defective parts or faulty manufacturing processes, obligations of the seller and purchaser, liability and statutes of limitation, etc.

The way i see it car manufacturers imply how long parts should last by offering a warranty based on klms and not time periods. If they offer a 5 year, unlimited klm warranty they are implying that the car should last for life and therefore i feel they should fix the car for life when something major like a timing chain or gearbox fails

I wouldn't agree with that assessment.

As with all things related to warranties, it's a matter of mathematics - mostly probability and statistics (see actuarial science).

It is convenient for a vehicle manufacturer to offer an "unlimited km" passenger car warranty because it isn't likely to cost them much to do so. A passenger vehicle (which isn't used for commercial purposes) that travels over 100 000 km within 3 years is more likely to be driven on the highway, freeway or motorway for a significant amount of time - conditions which are conducive to less wear and tear in general.

A passenger vehicle warranty with an unlimited distance interval that is also bound by a short time period will only benefit a very small percentage of the population by design. It is an offer with a very low risk attached to it, and thus makes it a very useful marketing tool.

There are so many low quality products because many people don't want to pay and basically force the manufacturers to cut corners, skimp on quality. After all, they make what markets buy. If the most people keep their car for 5 years, why would they make them to last 10 years?

I would argue that cost-cutting is driven more by profit margins and obligations to shareholders. Whether any subsequent cost savings are passed onto the consumer (very little I imagine) is at the discretion of the company.

[Transporter]

I would argue that cost-cutting is driven more by profit margins and obligations to shareholders. Whether any subsequent cost savings are passed onto the consumer (very little I imagine) is at the discretion of the company.

Of course you're right, both parties are equally guilty. It's not that hard to figure out using common sense that the smarter one with more power and money will make more out of it.

[Antiplastix]

My TSI has never been serviced by a dealer and has a "Superchips" tune from new. It recently started the dreaded start up rattle. Rather than wait for the inevitable I bought this and found a good mechanic to fit it. It is worth the peace of mind.

HS Tuning - TSI Timing Chain Tensioner Update Kit - 06K109467K

[ryno_07]

It says it's an OEM part, does that mean it's the same part they use when they have been replacing the faulty tensioner?

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[Transporter]

It says it's an OEM part, does that mean it's the same part they use when they have been replacing the faulty tensioner?

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

It refers to the OEM number and the description says "it is a new style tensioner".
They have to use the OEM as a reference otherwise you wouldn't know what to get.

[ryno_07]

It refers to the OEM number and the description says "it is a new style tensioner".
They have to use the OEM as a reference otherwise you wouldn't know what to get.

Do you know if this would be better than the new one VW is using?

Thanks.

[Transporter]

I didn't use it, so I don't have the first hand experience with it. I would expect it to be better and to resolve the issue, if the fault was caused by only a tensioner.