DSG - have I missed something major?!

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Just talking today to someone, and discussing Tig's, GTi's and R's. Can someone please clarify the situation with the DSG boxes for me?

I was under the impression (wrongly it seems), that the new 7 speed DSG is the duck's guts. However, I've now been told that the 7 speed (as in the new Tigs) is a dry clutch (as opposed to the wet 6 speed in GTI's), and that it has lower specs than the 6sp (especially torque limits). Which is why the 7 speed is in the lower powered VW's while the 6 speed wet is being retained for the higher performance spec VW's and Audi's. Can someone please clarify for me?

[wesa182]

Just quickly from the top of my head there is two versions of 7 speed DSG. As used in the new Polo max rating 250nm Torque and the other used in Tiguan/Q5 and Transporter with AWD Twin Turbo setup rated to about 550nm. Anybody else confirm?

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Just quickly from the top of my head there is two versions of 7 speed DSG. As used in the new Polo max rating 250nm Torque and the other used in Tiguan/Q5 and Transporter with AWD Twin Turbo setup rated to about 550nm. Anybody else confirm?

Two 7sp DSG's then? But isn't MK6 GTI, R using 6 speed wet clutch? That would make 3 DSG in current model VAG mix.

[Corey_R]

Yeah...

The "Original" DSG was the 6sp wet clutch DSG. VAG rate it for 350Nm and it has FWD and AWD versions.
Later came the 7sp dry clutch DSG. VAG rate it for 250Nm and it was designed to greatly reduce maintenance cost, weight etc.
Then came the 7sp wet clutch DSG from Audi. VAG rate it for 550Nm and thus far I've only seen it in AWD applications. It's a monster of a gearbox though, having about twice the oil of the original 6sp DSG and weighing over 140kg!

[clip]

Yeah...

The "Original" DSG was the 6sp wet clutch DSG. VAG rate it for 350Nm and it has FWD and AWD versions.
Later came the 7sp dry clutch DSG. VAG rate it for 250Nm and it was designed to greatly reduce maintenance cost, weight etc.
Then came the 7sp wet clutch DSG from Audi. VAG rate it for 550Nm and thus far I've only seen it in AWD applications. It's a monster of a gearbox though, having about twice the oil of the original 6sp DSG and weighing over 140kg!

thanks corey, so current MK6 GTI has old 6sp wet clutch DSG, Tig has 7 speed wet clutch monster?

[Corey_R]

Yes.

I think that it'll be interesting to see what happens with the 6sp DSG, whether it continues as is or is replaced by a new version, maybe with 7sp as well. I don't believe that the 7sp 550Nm will "replace" the 6sp any time soon as it's just too large and too heavy for the "smaller" cars (and by that I mean including the Golf).

[Dartiguan]

Just to clarify Corey_R, the 2010 and 2011 Tiguans that have the 7 speed DSG have a dry clutch that can take up to 550Nm of torque. This would allow the adventurous to easily go to stage 1 and 2 tuning. My understanding is that its key feature is the improved fuel consumption the extra gear provides as well, I didn't realise that it had such a high potential torque handling limit. I assume this should mean good longevity for our detuned retail versions such as the TDi that I have, or is a wet clutch version more long lived?

[Corey_R]

Hi Dartiguan. No. The Tiguans have the 7 speed DSG with wet clutch that can take up to 550Nm of torque.

There are only 3 DSG models (in order of release).
1) 6sp wet clutch 350Nm
2) 7sp dry clutch 250Nm
3) 7sp wet clutch 550Nm

The two 7sp gearboxes couldn't be further apart. The 7sp dry clutch weighing 70kg with two single plate dry clutches and having a transmission oil system with only 1.7L. The 7sp wet clutch weighing 140kg with a 10 plate clutch and a 12 plate clutch. It then has two separate transmission oil systems. A 7.5L system which lubricates the clutches and mechatronics. And a 4.3L system which lubricates the gears and differentials.

[Sharkie]

Corey is almost 100% correct in all aspects ..... The new 7spd DSG from the Tiguans is far too heavy for the smaller cars (Polo, Golf & Jetta) to use. May see it in the new Passat though.

It does however come in FWD as well. I have 1 in the Multivan and its pretty good. Like all DSG's it still has the annoying (and dangerous) lag upon take-off.

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Thanks fella's, that clears it up. I don't think I'd be buying a DSG GTI or R then - especailly I planned a performance upgrade.

[The_Hawk]

Because I have been reading it lately (for some reason), does that mean the new Polo GTI with it's 250Nm of torque is on the limit for it's DSG gearbox?

The TDI is at 230Nm, the other two petrol engine are well below, but if any performance upgrade is done at all on the TDI or the GTI it's exceeding the limits.


EDIT: I had a quick look across the Golf range too, seems the vehicles that are under 250Nm have the 7 speed DSG and those over still have the 6 speed DSG... interesting.

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EDIT: I had a quick look across the Golf range too, seems the vehicles that are under 250Nm have the 7 speed DSG and those over still have the 6 speed DSG... interesting.

Yes, that's how this all came up. A simple APR remap on a GTI golf put's it over the torque spec for the 6sp DSG. So a manual would be the only one to buy - if you would want a GTI in any case.

The 7sp DSG monster in the Tig is going to add some serious weight though. You'd be wanting to up the power specs just to haul it around - but at least it'll cope with it!

[Corey_R]

Corey is almost 100% correct in all aspects ..... The new 7spd DSG from the Tiguans is far too heavy for the smaller cars (Polo, Golf & Jetta) to use. May see it in the new Passat though.

It does however come in FWD as well. I have 1 in the Multivan and its pretty good. Like all DSG's it still has the annoying (and dangerous) lag upon take-off.

Aaah, thanks Sharkie. Originally it was for longtitudinal layouts only (so AWD). Good to know it's now in FWD cars too.

Because I have been reading it lately (for some reason), does that mean the new Polo GTI with it's 250Nm of torque is on the limit for it's DSG gearbox?

Yes, that's how this all came up. A simple APR remap on a GTI golf put's it over the torque spec for the 6sp DSG. So a manual would be the only one to buy - if you would want a GTI in any case.

@The_Hawk, yes and no. Whilst VAG rate the gearboxes for a certain Nm, it's just the same as how they release an engine with 330Nm and you can chip it and get 435Nm. They're always over-engineered and with plenty of headroom.

Which is why clip is wrong for two reasons.
1) Whilst the 6sp DSG only officially rated for 350Nm, there are plenty of people running around with 450 to 550Nm on it and with the stock internals. Also, just like a manual, you can purchase upgraded diffs and clutches, including clutch packs rated for 550Nm+ by the manufacturer. These were original developed for all those crazy R32-Turbo conversions with 800Nm

2) Saying that you should get the manual if you want to chip your Golf GTI is forgetting/overlooking the fact that the Golf GTI's 6sp manual is also only rated by VAG for 350Nm of torque!.

In other words, get the gearbox you want.

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Which is why clip is wrong for two reasons.
1) Whilst the 6sp DSG only officially rated for 350Nm, there are plenty of people running around with 450 to 550Nm on it and with the stock internals.

2) Saying that you should get the manual if you want to chip your Golf GTI is forgetting/overlooking the fact that the Golf GTI's 6sp manual is also only rated by VAG for 350Nm of torque!.

In other words, get the gearbox you want.

I love it when I'm wrong about these sorts of things!
Although, I'd rather upgrade a manual clutch than a DSG.

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Which box does the V6 CC have?