Tuning / performance update

[Sharkie]

I prefer the diesel for economy and like the torque down low which is good when the car is loaded and up the hills.

Which is fine and exactly the purpose of the TDi Tiguan. Just don't expect a chip (any chip) to transform its performance into pinned to the seat acceleration, its not meant to do that.

[DieselTig]

Understand that, otherwise I should get the V10 twin Turbo Tuareg.
Also, on the subject of remapping, I will most likely be going with Oettinger,they have a history of working with the German vehicles and invest a lot of time and money as mentioned.

[clip]

Unfortunately if you wanted pinned to the seat acceleration you should have ordered a Tiguan (any 1 would do) with the 2.0TSI motor. With tuning you would have had more than 400Nm and a 4500rmin wide powerband instead of the 2000rmin of the diesel.

It's interesting that diesels are thought of as torque monsters in today's world of engine development. Sure there are easy comparisons around and VW, in particular, pitch major marketing $$$ on just that.

A bit like the common misconception with sports bikes - vtwins inheritantly have more torque than in-line 4's of the same capacity. I don't think so.

[Arctra]

Guys, before chipping your Tig you might want to read a post by a JJJ on the MyTiguan forums that responded to Clip's post on those forums about chipping:

http://www.mytiguan.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6056

There is a lot more to consider than just the engines ability to handle the shipping as you'll see in that post. In fact, there's not just the gearbox on top of that to consider either. It's the ENTIRE drive train you need to consider, in conjunction with how you intend to use your Tig. Granted, JJJ probably puts his Tig through more 4x4 tracks than all Tig owners on this forum combined, so we may not subject our Tigs to having to put all torque through just one wheel, but you may learn a thing or two from his post.

[DieselTig]

Guys, before chipping your Tig you might want to read a post by a JJJ on the MyTiguan forums that responded to Clip's post on those forums about chipping:

http://www.mytiguan.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6056

There is a lot more to consider than just the engines ability to handle the shipping as you'll see in that post. In fact, there's not just the gearbox on top of that to consider either. It's the ENTIRE drive train you need to consider, in conjunction with how you intend to use your Tig. Granted, JJJ probably puts his Tig through more 4x4 tracks than all Tig owners on this forum combined, so we may not subject our Tigs to having to put all torque through just one wheel, but you may learn a thing or two from his post.

Arctra, interesting post. This explains that the majority of remaps I have come across including Oettinger only go upto 370Nm which is a modest 13% increase and below the maximum Aisin TF-80SC Tiptronic torque of 440Nm. This gives enough safety margin for the Tiptronic. Good find.

[clip]

Guys, before chipping your Tig you might want to read a post by a JJJ on the MyTiguan forums that responded to Clip's post on those forums about chipping:

http://www.mytiguan.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6056

There is a lot more to consider than just the engines ability to handle the shipping as you'll see in that post. In fact, there's not just the gearbox on top of that to consider either. It's the ENTIRE drive train you need to consider, in conjunction with how you intend to use your Tig. Granted, JJJ probably puts his Tig through more 4x4 tracks than all Tig owners on this forum combined, so we may not subject our Tigs to having to put all torque through just one wheel, but you may learn a thing or two from his post.

oh please Arctra... for love of whoever, Tig's are not, never will be (in their current form anyway) anything remotely near a 4WD. If you're going to subject your Tig to that, then good luck - even in stock trim - and especially if you've got a sludge box (interestingly, JJJ seems to also assume that we all have auto's).

"But don’t now not chip your engine on account of me. I would recommend asking your chipper of choice – innocently – what the maximum torque is that the transmission can handle, and if he stares at you blankly, you’ll know what to do." (JJJ)

Precisely why I approached Hardings Performance for their opinion and collective knowledge (Oettinger and APR).

"The concern for most people considering chipping seems to be the reliability of the engine, and if it fails, the warranty implication. The general consensus is that it is probably safer to chip a diesel engine due to its lower revving nature and the fact that is has been designed to run at very high compression ratios, so it should be robust enough, providing the extra power is used sensibly."

I have no idea where JJJ gets that "general consensus" from. I think he is actually completely misinformed on this - talking out of his arse and really not based on anything other than his arguably misinformed opinion. Besides, I don't know anyone that seriously chips their diesel for performance. I mean, why bother? It's never going to amount to anything in comparison.

"And this is where the argument fails - the longevity of the engine is unfortunately not the half of it."

What argument JJJ? Hello? But you're probably right, in this respect - I chip my diesel or petrol Tig and then try and turn it into a landcruiser, discovery etc. Blown gearbox, diff, driveshafts etc - I deserve everything I get.

But then at the end of the day please, please don't chip them. In fact, anyone reading this forum and wondering whether or not to make a Tig purchase, please think twice. There's really lots of other good cars out there.

[clip]

.. Oettinger only go upto 370Nm which is a modest 13% increase and below the maximum Aisin TF-80SC Tiptronic torque of 440Nm. This gives enough safety margin for the Tiptronic.

Sorry, but why is 370 a good safety margin? I would have thought 435Nm was a good safety margin, still 40Nm less than maximum. It's not like the engine is going to peak up over 440 or anything. Technically, it should be good right up to 440Nm without any problems. If pushing over that, then I would consider a valid failure, but nothing less.

[Pullstarter]

There's some really serious bull***** going on here!! Have all these anti-chip people forgotten that the drivetrain in our petrol Tigs is the EXACT same drivetrain hardware used in the R32?!?!?!?! Do you hear of any of them blowing gearboxes or diffs etc?? They have standard 184kw and handle it with ease and I dare say people drive R32s a damn sight harder than we drive our Tigs!

As Clip says, if you want a hardcore 4wd you would NEVER buy an SUV, you'd get a Landcruiser/Patrol/Pajero etc

I think a lot of people here need to realise that different people want different things from their cars, if you're worried about chipping DON'T DO IT. If you've done your homework and are prepared to take the VERY small risk that something may go wrong with the car as a result of chipping then you go in with full knowledge of this.

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE AN END TO ALL OF THIS NOW, PLEASE?!?!?!

[Sanman]

Sorry, but why is 370 a good safety margin? I would have thought 435Nm was a good safety margin, still 40Nm less than maximum. It's not like the engine is going to peak up over 440 or anything. Technically, it should be good right up to 440Nm without any problems. If pushing over that, then I would consider a valid failure, but nothing less.

It's not black-and-white - the closer you get to the limit, the more likely it is to fail. You can exceed the maximum, if you treat it gently, you can get away with it. But there's alway's a price. Higher torque in a similar model is only a guide, as there are different cooling issues, extra weight causes additional stress. That's why they test. The manufacturers limit things to where the most mechanically unsympathetic drivers drive - its a warranty claim issue, and big mechanical things are expensive. So they limit things for you. Remember, if the manufacturer could get 33% more power for "free" they would.

[smipx013]

Remember that in Europe they're already putting 125kw 350nm through the tiptronic box in the 125kw diesel. I understand there's been an issue about the "manual transmission" coping with the torque but NOT the auto. One of the GB guys had his diesel manual Tig replaced with an auto cos he did a lot of towing and it wasn't handling it too well. This was in the early days of Tig though !!

Cheers

Just to clarify.

In europe (UK at least) you can get the 140ps 2.0 TDi in auto/tip and in manual variants but the 170ps variant is manual only. It's the other way around to what you said. I have the auto 140ps but wanted a 170ps auto. It does not exist and VW told me they knew of no plans to implement. You can confirm this by using the website http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/#/new/tiguan/ and configuring one. If you want auto then you are stuck with 140ps (103Kw) or the petrol 200ps TSi.

I then purchased a bluefin ECU device from a company called superchips.co.uk and they told me they could not tune my 2010 model Tig yet because the ECU is the new 2010 Bosch unit with anti-tuning and it had not been cracked by their development team yet. They reckon to have it cracked by the end of the year. Superchips have 25 years of ECU mod experience and are the official tuning partner for Volkswagen Racing UK.

cheers,

Paul (from UK)

[Pullstarter]

Smip is correct, the internals of the Tig manual (apart from the ratios) are the same as the R32, therefore strong as buggery.

[Pullstarter]

Remember, if the manufacturer could get 33% more power for "free" they would.

What a load of BS!! They DO get it for free!! The Tig 125 and 147 are IDENTICAL apart from software. They do this so they can make more MONEY!! It's the same with 103 and 125 TDI, identical engines just different software, more power=more expensive and it doesn't cost the manufacturer a cent! Just a different software profile. Sorry for going off guys but there really is some serious amounts of misinformation going on here!!

[DieselTig]

What a load of BS!! They DO get it for free!! The Tig 125 and 147 are IDENTICAL apart from software. They do this so they can make more MONEY!! It's the same with 103 and 125 TDI, identical engines just different software, more power=more expensive and it doesn't cost the manufacturer a cent! Just a different software profile. Sorry for going off guys but there really is some serious amounts of misinformation going on here!!

Bottom line is that there are reputable companies out there that offer the remaping with modest increases in power and torque and we have the choice to use them or not. My choice is to go with Oettinger when I get around to it. The risk is minimum unless the Tig goes thru some crazy terrain exercises which I am not going to do anyway, my Xtrail does some of that.

[Transporter]

What a load of BS!! They DO get it for free!! The Tig 125 and 147 are IDENTICAL apart from software. They do this so they can make more MONEY!! It's the same with 103 and 125 TDI, identical engines just different software, more power=more expensive and it doesn't cost the manufacturer a cent! Just a different software profile. Sorry for going off guys but there really is some serious amounts of misinformation going on here!!

Indeed. Because 103TDI and 125TDI are internally different.
More power=more heath, so VW revised the 125TDI engine to handle that extra power and the heat. Different pistons, conrods, cylinder head and the head gasket just to name a few.

[Arctra]

There's some really serious bull***** going on here!! Have all these anti-chip people forgotten that the drivetrain in our petrol Tigs is the EXACT same drivetrain hardware used in the R32?!?!?!?!

Hey Pullstarter.

It's great that you're passionate about your chipping and comfortable with your Tigs ability to handle it. I am a risk averse type that likes to make an informed decision. I'm not anti-chipping, not at all, because I am actually very interested in getting it done. But I would like to get some assurance that I'm not unnecessarily puitting the longevity of my Tig at risk.

Far from being BS, there is some valid information and arguments going on here. Just because a piece of info doesn't match your exact circumstance doesn't mean it's BS... it's just not relevant to your situation.

Do you hear of any of them blowing gearboxes or diffs etc?? They have standard 184kw and handle it with ease and I dare say people drive R32s a damn sight harder than we drive our Tigs!

To be honest, I wasn't aware that the Tigs drivetrain is "exactly" the same as the R32's. Is the Tigs weight the same? Does the R32 come with a Tiptronic box like mine? What's teh max torque of the R32 compared with my TDI? All of those variables factor into whether the increased power from the chipping can be handled by the Tig or not.

As Clip says, if you want a hardcore 4wd you would NEVER buy an SUV, you'd get a Landcruiser/Patrol/Pajero etc

Agreed. But VW do offer an off-road pack, and it is marketed as an Off-roader. Where does one draw the line between "casual off-roading with the occassional challenging obsticle that requires full power" and "hard core off roader"?

I think a lot of people here need to realise that different people want different things from their cars, if you're worried about chipping DON'T DO IT. If you've done your homework and are prepared to take the VERY small risk that something may go wrong with the car as a result of chipping then you go in with full knowledge of this.

I couldn't agree with the sentiment of needing to realise different people wanting different things, and that you should do your homework before chipping. Amusingly, that is what I (and I suspect others) am seeking to do on this thread.

I guess one of the problems that might be causing the perception of FUD is the application of information to the wrong set of variables. Maybe we could set those variables out, and then those that have some experience and evidence to support their opinions can contribute on their opinions of chipping. If reps from the major chipping companies could give feedback that would be great (although obviously objectivity and keeping to your own products would be appreciated)

- What is your engine cabaple of in max KW and max Torque? (specific to each model - 125 and 147 Petrols, and 109 Deisel)
- What is your gearbox cabale of? (specific to each model - 125 and 147 Petrols, and 109 Deisel)
- What is the rest of the drivetrain (Diff's, Haldex, who knows what else) capable of?
- How do you intend using your Tig? (street racer, family SUV, off-roader, regular commuter, etc)
- How long do you intend keeping your Tig? (presumably the longer you want to keep it, the longer you want it to last before making major replacements and repairs that might result for the extra powers stress on the vehicle)
- How much time and money are you willing to spend on regular preventative maintenance of the vehicle to ensure the extra power does not compromise the longevity of the Tig?
- What is your level of technical knowledge on the subject of chipping, the limitations and advantages of it, and your ability to identify potential issues that should be addressed before they damage any part of the Tig?

I'm sure there are other variables too, but those are off the top of my head.

To give you an idea of where I am coming from with my questions and concerns:
- I have the TDI 109kW and know it's cabale of at least 125kw with an extra 40NM of torque without compromising the engine. It may be capable of more though?
- I have the auto gearbox and am really not sure what it is capable of handling. As I currently understand it, the TDI has been limited to 109kW to prevent my auto box from overheating. I would love some more detail on what it's capable of though.
- It seems the rest of the drivetrain is capable of handling any upgrade I am likely to throw at it, though I'm not sure of the longer term effects. For 90% of what I'll use it for it should be fine though.
- I mainly use my Tig for communiting to work during the week where I am a bit of a street light drag racer. On the weekends I tend to do longer drives, mainly on paved roads, but I am intending on doing more easy/medium to medium off-roading once I am comfortable with what the Tig can handle.
- This is my first brand new vehicle so I am naturally a little more protective of it. I intend keeping it longer term so the longevity of the vehicle is pretty important to me.
- I'm unlikely to have a hell of a lot of time and money to spend on maintenance of the vehicle so I would rather have the chipping operate within the parameters of what it can handle rather that have it right on the bleeding edge where the extra stresses result in additional costs from maintenance.
- I am a newbie at the chipping game so am very much in an information gathering phase. I learned the hard way when overclocking my PC's that it's possible to push something way beyond what the manufacturer recommends, but something has to give, and that's usually longevity. There is however a sweet spot that you can achieve that gets more performance than the manufacturer recommends without compromisinging the entegrity of the components. That's the sweet spot I am trying to identify with chipping the Tig before I take the leap.