Tuning / performance update

[DieselTig]

Indeed. Because 103TDI and 125TDI are internally different.
More power=more heath, so VW revised the 125TDI engine to handle that extra power and the heat. Different pistons, conrods, cylinder head and the head gasket just to name a few.

That is exactly what the gentleman from Turbo Engineering told me, the 103 and 125 tdi are different engines and the main reason is the overheating. He also stipulated that they do the changes to ecu program and test it on the 4wd dynamometer to make sure the max operating temperatures engine, exhaust and gearbox are maintained within design parameters. He did mention that you can push it a lot higher but the overheating is going to be the problem.

[Sharkie]

Umm, Actra, .... the TDi Tiguan makes 103kw not 109kw .....

Some general info here:

The R32 makes 320Nm @ 2500-3000rmin & 184kw @ 6300rmin

The R32, Tiguan, Passat 4Motion, Audi A3 Quattro, Audi S3, Audi TT Quattro all use the same drivetrain from a 4Motion perspective with only minor differences for its Haldex ECU, gear ratios and the gearboxes hooked up to it.

The TDi makes 320Nm from 1750rmin-2500rmin .... it is very far from a flat torque curve as it climbs very steeply to that point and drops quite steeply from 2500 onwards. It is only flat for 750rmin and far from ideal.

The TSi Tiguans makes 280Nm from 1700rmin - 5000rmin ... which is flat torque powerband of 3300rmin which is amazing. At 1700rmin and from 3000rmin onwards it makes more torque than the TDi. Have a look at the torque curves ...... At crawling speed over obstacles off-road the TSI will have more torque delivered ......

The TDi's strenghts are its economy and lazy revving character not its torque advantage ...... The TDIs gear ratios are chosen to complement this, but in all acceleration tests, including in-gear overtaking it lags far behind the TSIs.

The ONLY advantage a TDI has over a TSI is economy ....

Its lazy revving nature and economy appeals to a wide demographic which is great but never list its torque as a strenght compare to the TSis, its actually at a disadvantage if you look it closely from a technical perspective.

SO ....

to get back to tuning, all the research by the respected tuning companies have found that the most optimal result from a performance and reliability perspective for the 2.0TSis and 2.0TDis are:

103kw TDI = 125kw/370NM
125/147kw TSI = 190kw/400NM

and these figures are achieved without endangering reliability and longetivity of the drivetrains involved. You could drive all of them 200,000km provided you follow the service schedules and never experience a problem.

It is when you go beyond these that you start exposing yourself to other potential issues. Do so only if you are well informed and prepared to accept any consequences.

I'd recomend anybody chipping their Tiguans as it will enhance the driving experience of all the models ... TDIs and TSIs alike without endangering anything.

[Arctra]

That is exactly what the gentleman from Turbo Engineering told me, the 103 and 125 tdi are different engines and the main reason is the overheating. He also stipulated that they do the changes to ecu program and test it on the 4wd dynamometer to make sure the max operating temperatures engine, exhaust and gearbox are maintained within design parameters. He did mention that you can push it a lot higher but the overheating is going to be the problem.

Interesting. See, I would have thought the 103TDI and 125TDI would have been pretty much the same parts (as it sounds the 125 and 147 petrols seem to be), but if the 125TDI has been uprated then it makes sense it's capable of more.

I don't suppose your chippers would be willing to say what the TDI's auto box is capable of?

[DieselTig]

Sharkie, I can sense a bit bias against diesels here. Each to their own I guess.

[Sharkie]

Sharkie, I can sense a bit bias against diesels here. Each to their own I guess.

Not at all, I'm actually trying to correct bias ..... proponents of the TDI VW's need to be realistic of its place and strengths and weakness. Its good but not to the extent it's generally made out to be.

BTW ... I have a T/Diesel DualCab 4WD as well .... a real 4WD .... in addition to 2 SUVs now (for the moment) .... .... and I won't ever take the SUVs to the same places as I do the DualCab.

Edit ...
AND ... I'd be far more comfortable taking the "other" SUV on to a beach for instance than any Tiguan. Its has permanent 50:50 AWD and weighs 300kg less .... and in its current form is no slower than a stock TSI Tiguan.

[Arctra]

This is not TDI vs TSI

Yeah, great info there Sharkie, though I already have a TDI so the TDI vs TSI isn't really relevant. I guess it would be to prospective buyers though.

Those "safe" figures you quote from the big tuning houses... are you assuming they're safe because that's what the tuning houses are offering, or do you have access to further information that we don't?

I guess the skeptic in me is just uncomfortable with the "trust me, this is the best" info that's currently available. My background is in auditing so I am naturally skeptical. I'd love to sink my teeth into the justifications for that to see whether I am comfortable with the assumptions and compromises the tuning houses use when making the decisions on where they stop their tuning.

I'm not for a second questioning whether anyones decisions to chip or not chip, or to get a TSI vs a TDI, or anything. I am trying to make the best decision for me. And as I said before, I am very grateful that there are more knowledgeable users on this forum willing to give their opinions and advice.

[clip]

Those "safe" figures you quote from the big tuning houses... are you assuming they're safe because that's what the tuning houses are offering, or do you have access to further information that we don't?

I'm guessing that Oettinger and APR - the "big tuning houses" - do know exactly what they are doing and probably more so than what VW actually know or are willing to share at least.

But does anyone, even for one moment, seriously think that Oettinger or APR would supply a modification that would result in potential disaster to engines or drivetrains? That is their business. If they started doing that it would take - at a guess - no more than a few weeks before the "word" got out. They would very soon be out of business. I know people that have been running these mods for as long as they have been available for VW's. I personally do not know and have never heard of any problems caused by these remaps (not saying there hasn't been, but not in my experience).

[sama13]

I'm here with Clip, I have been tuning cars with Revo since 2003 and no problems at all, remember Oettinger and APR both work together with VW and now in the US you can get a APR version GTi from VW USA, if the 4 motion is the question, check HPA with the turbo R32's there are plenty of US tuners and some germans doing over 500hp on those cars and they never mention a problem on the transmission on the forums. I know from personal experience that if you tune to the extreme any car with auto transmission the torque converter suffers more and you might need to change it faster (ex. CLK55 with Kleemann supercharger after 4 years of use, torque converter came out purple of extreme use, changed it and perfect again!)

[Sharkie]

... remember Oettinger and APR both work together with VW and now in the US you can get a APR version GTi from VW USA ...

You have to take note that APR and Oettinger have had really close relationships with VAG (VW Audi Group) for years, and I'm not talking about Australia either. In Germany Oettinger and VAG have worked together for a long time and they even have access to technical info and bulletins (and design info) that nobody else outside has. Same for APR and VW USA.

As Sama says, often limited edition specials through VW are built by these 2 tuners. VW Singapore's limited edition Golf GTI for instance 3 months ago for instance is all APR .......

So if a modification through these guys are available I'm pretty certain that everything possible have been taken into consideration. The last thing they want is a "bad" product that will not only cost them customers and loss of market reputation but also damage their relationship with VAG.

You can buy from these guys with confidence, they have an entire R&D organisation AND inside links to VAG going for them, .... doing something through a lone tuner in his workshop ...... not too confident about that regardless of his skills.

[DieselTig]

You have to take note that APR and Oettinger have had really close relationships with VAG (VW Audi Group) for years, and I'm not talking about Australia either. In Germany Oettinger and VAG have worked together for a long time and they even have access to technical info and bulletins (and design info) that nobody else outside has. Same for APR and VW USA.

As Sama says, often limited edition specials through VW are built by these 2 tuners. VW Singapore's limited edition Golf GTI for instance 3 months ago for instance is all APR .......

So if a modification through these guys are available I'm pretty certain that everything possible have been taken into consideration. The last thing they want is a "bad" product that will not only cost them customers and loss of market reputation but also damage their relationship with VAG.

You can buy from these guys with confidence, they have an entire R&D organisation AND inside links to VAG going for them, .... doing something through a lone tuner in his workshop ...... not too confident about that regardless of his skills.

Good conclusion Sharkie and Sama. Oettinger have been 60+ years in existence and this may say something about them. I think this subject is done to "death".

[Pullstarter]

Good conclusion Sharkie and Sama. Oettinger have been 60+ years in existence and this may say something about them. I think this subject is done to "death".

I agree, time to draw a line under it. If people can't make a decision from all the info in this thread they never will.

[clip]

But what about ca intakes and exhaust Simon? and then there's fuel pump and turbo upgrades to go. Should be good for close 400hp

[DieselTig]

But what about ca intakes and exhaust Simon? and then there's fuel pump and turbo upgrades to go. Should be good for close 400hp

For 400HP the cheapest way is to buy aussie HSV with the vintage 6L V8 and that wil also give you a good 800+ Newtons.

[Pullstarter]

For 400HP the cheapest way is to buy aussie HSV with the vintage 6L V8 and that wil also give you a good 800+ Newtons.

EEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!! Wash your mouth out!! It has push rods!!! LOL

[DieselTig]

EEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!! Wash your mouth out!! It has push rods!!! LOL

That's exactly what I mean by by "Vintage", 60 year old american technology.LOL

Checked WIki on the Aisin tiptronic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWTF-80_SC and found it interesting reading.