Have I received Lemon Tiguan 132T or again DSG old problems continue with Volkswagen?

[Justice]

Hi all from the UK

My research to gather information regarding similar issues my wife's Tiguan R-Line is experiencing has brought me to this forum, in particular this thread.

My wife's Tiguan R-Line 190ps DSG 4 Motion is a January 2017 build and invoiced at GBP £44,000.00 Her car has been exhibiting similar issues as associated with this thread. Here is a link to my posts on the UK Mk2 Tiguan Forum - 4 Motion DSG Noise upon Deceleration at low speed! - VW Tiguan MK2 Forums

What surprises me is that the amongst UK owners there appears no recorded issues with the 7 speed DSG other than my wife's although out of the 4 Tiguan MK 2 Tiguans I have test driven 3 of those cars exhibited mechanical noise issues from the transmission area!

VW and the selling dealer maintain that the issues afflicting my wife's Tiguan is a "characteristic" although they will not confirm where the "characteristic" noise is emanating from or what component!

In order to support my findings I have recently invested in obtaining an independent engineers report which does back up my opinion.

Because of the engineers conclusion and VW's unwillingness to resolve my formal grievance I am now seeking legal advice to reject the car as it appears the noise is a terminal one and along with the other related issues could be a big problem in the not too distant future.

[tigger73]

First I'll say that as yet nobody has posted any clips of the noises that people are complaining about so it's really har for the rest of us to comment. Given that the OP has driven other cars that are exibiting similar noises I'd tend to agree with the dealerships assessment that this is a characteristic noise of the vehicle and not somethign specific to their car. Also in the dealerships (and VW) defence, unless the vehicle is physically broken it's a bit hard for them to do anything to a vehicle that is "operating within manufacturer tolerances".

In my experience noise levels can be a very personal thing. For one person a small noise can be highly irritating and others they don't even notice it. Because you're specifically focussing on the gearbox/transmission noises all the time it's become an issue for you. I'm not saying it isn't an issue but you may be making an issue (and not enjoying all the good things about your car) by focussing on the one or 2 things that are not perfect in your opinion.

However I agree that an excessively noisy gearbox/transmission could be indicative of shortened life. You would have to ask VW what the acceptable noise level from the transmission would be before they would replace under warranty. If there is excessive noise/vibration from the transmission I would certainly be taking this up with the manufacturer. However if after testing it is within "manufacturer limits" then there's not much more you can do other than to keep an eye on it.

This is similar to oil consumption with some other VW cars. Just because the car is drinking oil doesn't mean an automatic new engine. Limit is 1l/1,000km. If it's less than that then it's deemed "acceptable" even though to you as a consumer it may not be OK.

So if you believe the gearbox is excessively noisy (and it may be the case), then find out from VW what the acceptable noise limit is (get this in writing as a dB/vibration level) and then get the dealer to test it. If you're not happy with the dealer test then get an independent test done. However the first thing you need to do is get VW to specify what is an acceptable/unacceptable level of noise and an acceptable test method.

[smarty]

My 162 makes noise when it's cold, we sometimes reverse out a driveway which we then have to roll down a steep hill to the corner intersection, it's like when you have backed off the gas to roll down, it makes abit of noise and some rattles and mechanical clunks/knocks, I guess it's just normal as the DSG is just working out what it's doing and it's not yet warmed up, the car is in first too mind you on rolling, basically just flicked from reverse to drive and then just rolling down the hill for say 20 or so meters

No other real noises apart from this one that I can think of

[NZ_GolfR]

My 162 makes noise when it's cold, we sometimes reverse out a driveway which we then have to roll down a steep hill to the corner intersection, it's like when you have backed off the gas to roll down, it makes abit of noise and some rattles and mechanical clunks/knocks, I guess it's just normal as the DSG is just working out what it's doing and it's not yet warmed up, the car is in first too mind you on rolling, basically just flicked from reverse to drive and then just rolling down the hill for say 20 or so meters

No other real noises apart from this one that I can think of

My car (162TSI) makes the same noise every morning when the car is cold and going down my road (a bit of a hill) and I lift off the gas. I personally thought it was the exhaust, or more specifically the resonator, and once it is warmed up, which only takes a few minutes, the noise has gone.

[smarty]

My car (162TSI) makes the same noise every morning when the car is cold and going down my road (a bit of a hill) and I lift off the gas. I personally thought it was the exhaust, or more specifically the resonator, and once it is warmed up, which only takes a few minutes, the noise has gone.

ahh ok glad mines not the only one, ive not noticed it when its warm, seems only on a cold start

[Justice]

tigger73 due to engine noise its not possible to record the noise as stated. However, the dealer and VW have failed to respond to my requests to elaborate on where the noise is emanating from or what component is the causation of such noise!

It is not about acceptable noise limits but noises that are indicative of abnormal operation which could be due to many variables, including engineering tolerances, assembly processes or the likelihood of non conforming components.

The independent DEKRA engineer I appointed concluded that the noise was unacceptable and would likely get worse with increased mileage!.....with the chequered history of DSG problems and the recent emissions scandal are VW continuing their deceit to their loyal customers?

I would also add that strangely the noise based on reports appears to only affect 190ps 4 motion derivatives in the UK with one known owner confirmed as having a DSG gearbox replacement.

I have test driven 4 2017 4 motion Tiguans with 3 of those exhibiting worrying noises from the drive-train area

[tigger73]

Like I said before if you believe there is an issue with your car, you'll need to find out what the acceptable limits (of noise) are with VW and then have your car tested above those limits if you're going to get any rectification work done. More than likely the dealer will have to perform these tests and/or VW agree to the independent testing to get any warranty work performed.

Given that you have test-driven 3 other cars that have the same noise I would tend to agree with the dealer that it's a characteristic noise of the vehicle. Because it's a brand new model it will take some time for any inherent issues to come up and get sorted in production. It is quite normal with any newly released vehicle that there are a number of revisions of parts due to feedback/problems from early adopter customers/dealers. It's possible that there is an issue/undesirable characteristic with the design of some parts that cause the noise you're talking about. You would have to wait until the noise is diagnosed down to the component and then a new revision of the component made in order to get this fitted to your vehicle.

I'd agree with you that it's maybe an undesirable noise, however I don't think this noise is making the car unsafe/dangerous to drive. If you're really concerned about it (which sounds like to be the case), I would keep onto VW about it. As I said before though you will have to wait until a revised part is available as fitting the same part again to your car may well result in the same issue (given that many of the similar cars have the same noise).

Hopefully your work will make a better car for those buying in 2019/2020 after all of the initial production issues get sorted.

[Justice]

tigger73 my wife has managed to upload a video from her iphone of the DSG noise on her Tiguan via YouTube -

YouTube

I would draw your attention to the following specific times in the sound video where the noise is highly noticeable - 5 seconds, 35 seconds, 49 - 55 seconds, 1m 5 seconds - 1min 12 seconds, 1min 25 seconds - 1min 40 seconds, 1min 45 seconds - 1min 52 seconds and 2 min - 2min 20 seconds!

I would welcome your views on whether you think this DSG noise is acceptable on a £44,000.00 GBP car?

[GeeMoney]

tigger73 my wife has managed to upload a video from her iphone of the DSG noise on her Tiguan via YouTube -

YouTube

I would draw your attention to the following specific times in the sound video where the noise is highly noticeable - 5 seconds, 35 seconds, 49 - 55 seconds, 1m 5 seconds - 1min 12 seconds, 1min 25 seconds - 1min 40 seconds, 1min 45 seconds - 1min 52 seconds and 2 min - 2min 20 seconds!

I would welcome your views on whether you think this DSG noise is acceptable on a £44,000.00 GBP car?

On the 1m and 12 seconds there is a strange sound if you ask me.
My DSG does not sound like that at all. I wonde rif it's the gearbox though, it seems like the sound is also there when not hearing any acceleration. Of course it's hard for me to be sure about this as i'm not sitting in the car or driving myself.
If you keep "playing" with the gas in the same gear, do you hear this sound too? (use the flippers on the steering wheel or put it on M mode)
Maybe let someone (independent) check all "moving" parts on the bottom and wheels and check if every bolt is tied up correctly.

Does the sound get louder if your speed increases?

[tigger73]

I've listened to the clip a number of times and to be honest I initailly couldn't hear anything other than a "normal" car. However there is definitely something that sounds like metal on metal rubbing like you're running short on brake disc and you've got caliper against rotor.

The hard thing is that noises often get transferred around a car so it can be difficult to pinpoint exactly where the noise is coming from. Did the guy that did the independent testing get the car up on a hoist to check exactly what the source of the noise was?

[Justice]

On the 1m and 12 seconds there is a strange sound if you ask me.
My DSG does not sound like that at all. I wonde rif it's the gearbox though, it seems like the sound is also there when not hearing any acceleration. Of course it's hard for me to be sure about this as i'm not sitting in the car or driving myself.
If you keep "playing" with the gas in the same gear, do you hear this sound too? (use the flippers on the steering wheel or put it on M mode)
Maybe let someone (independent) check all "moving" parts on the bottom and wheels and check if every bolt is tied up correctly.

Does the sound get louder if your speed increases?

GEEMONEY check the recording at 5 seconds - 12 seconds, 1m.25 - 1m.40 and 2m - 2m.20 that where the noise is highlighted most IMO.

The independent engineer I appointed seems to think the noise is emanating from the transfer box and the dealer from the gearbox!

The grating noise does not appear under acceleration, only downshifting at speeds up to 20mph. There is also a noticeable bearing type sound when driving at constant speed (40/50mph max) in ALL gears. All the checks you have indicated have been carried out by the dealer and independent engineer.

The noise appears to be getting worse with more use. Unfortunately the sound recording which was made via a mobile phone does not highlight the noise in a true sense.

I've listened to the clip a number of times and to be honest I initailly couldn't hear anything other than a "normal" car. However there is definitely something that sounds like metal on metal rubbing like you're running short on brake disc and you've got caliper against rotor.

The hard thing is that noises often get transferred around a car so it can be difficult to pinpoint exactly where the noise is coming from. Did the guy that did the independent testing get the car up on a hoist to check exactly what the source of the noise was?

The sound recording was made by my wife on her iPhone so not the best and certainly not a true reproduction of the noise in real terms.

Your description of metal on metal is certainly quite correct as I mentioned it was a metal grating noise. Like you say noises can appear to be originating from other sources due to sound resonance, however it is definitely a noise whose source is the drive train area which could be either the gearbox (Dealers opinion), Transfer Box (independent Engineers opinion) or possibly the differential.

The idea of putting the car on ramps to ascertain root cause would not identify the noise as it is only audible when driven. The independent engineers opinion is based purely on visual inspection and test driving the car.

[tigger73]

The grating noise does not appear under acceleration, only downshifting at speeds up to 20mph. There is also a noticeable bearing type sound when driving at constant speed (40/50mph max) in ALL gears.

I'd suggest it's due to engine braking causing the driveline to move from being under power to transferring the power from the wheel back through the engine. The drivetrain will shift in its mounts so I'm guessing this must be just enough to cause some interference somewhere along the driveline.

The noise appears to be getting worse with more use. Unfortunately the sound recording which was made via a mobile phone does not highlight the noise in a true sense.

Well I would be making 100% sure that the issue is logged with VW itself and not just with the dealer. I'd also be asking them at what point the noise is unacceptable and that they are going to rectify the issue.

Your description of metal on metal is certainly quite correct as I mentioned it was a metal grating noise. Like you say noises can appear to be originating from other sources due to sound resonance, however it is definitely a noise whose source is the drive train area which could be either the gearbox (Dealers opinion), Transfer Box (independent Engineers opinion) or possibly the differential.

The idea of putting the car on ramps to ascertain root cause would not identify the noise as it is only audible when driven. The independent engineers opinion is based purely on visual inspection and test driving the car.

Well if it only happens when loaded up on the road I can understand and that does make diagnosis more problematic. I would be talkingto VW themselves and push to get one of their master technicians to look into it if the dealer is unable to diagnose the issue.

The problem lies with the dealer not being able to diagnose the fault and not wanting to recommend a course of action only for it not to solve the problem. Then the problem transfers from VW as a warranty issue tothe dealer (the dealer carries the can if they stuff things up or mis-diagnose the issue). So push to get VWmaster tech to look at your car when he is in the area. Sounds like it's still drive-able but understand you wan this issue fixed sooner rather than later as you don't want any permanent damage being done.

[Justice]

I'd suggest it's due to engine braking causing the driveline to move from being under power to transferring the power from the wheel back through the engine. The drivetrain will shift in its mounts so I'm guessing this must be just enough to cause some interference somewhere along the driveline.

The sound recording was made on perfectly flat roads at speeds up to 20 mph so there should not be sufficient or any drivetrain movement to warrant any related noise. The noise is definitely an internal one in either the gearbox, transfer box or differential.

Well I would be making 100% sure that the issue is logged with VW itself and not just with the dealer. I'd also be asking them at what point the noise is unacceptable and that they are going to rectify the issue.

The issue is logged with the dealer and VW. Unfortunately neither party will accept responsibility or confirm where the noise is emanating from!.....maybe because this is another major DSG quality concern in the making??!!

Well if it only happens when loaded up on the road I can understand and that does make diagnosis more problematic. I would be talking to VW themselves and push to get one of their master technicians to look into it if the dealer is unable to diagnose the issue.

It happens when down shifting or driving any 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear up to 20 mph. In addition a "worn bearing" sound is noticeable in all gears up to 40 mph! I have had several master technicians look at the car and test drive it and neither know what the root cause is as they have had to rely on VW technical assistance for a diagnosis. Given that the dealer believes it is a 'characteristic' begs the question why the dealer requested VW tech assistance when it is supposedly 'normal operation' noise!.......a noise that master techs would be be aware of on a daily basis???

The problem lies with the dealer not being able to diagnose the fault and not wanting to recommend a course of action only for it not to solve the problem. Then the problem transfers from VW as a warranty issue tothe dealer (the dealer carries the can if they stuff things up or mis-diagnose the issue). So push to get VWmaster tech to look at your car when he is in the area. Sounds like it's still drive-able but understand you wan this issue fixed sooner rather than later as you don't want any permanent damage being done

The dealer is adamant that the noise is a normal operational noise and a "characteristic" of the 7 speed DSG which I do not accept!
I would get better gearbox refinement from a Russian Trabant!!

I am hoping that the UK Motor Ombudsman will look at my wife's plight favourably as this noise is not acceptable given the vehicle price and history of DSG failures, not forgetting the fact that many Tiguan owners are confirming that their cars do not exhibit any noises from the drivetrain area.

[tigger73]

Don't be jumping on the DSG bandwagon. The DSG in the Tiguan is a completely different unit to the earlier 7 speed dry clutch ones with a lot of issues. Yours is a very robust gearbox in comparison.

I think you'll find it's rear tail shaft /transfer case as there's something moving when you decelerate just enough to give you a slight rubbing somewhere in the drive line.

The dealers have master techs but VW does also. I'd be pushing for the VW tech to look at it. The dealer is only saying it's "normal" as they don't know what to do. If it breaks they can fix it but until that happens it's an annoying characteristic.


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[harry]

I honestly can't hear anything. All I can ascertain is that you have a strange driving style, unless you were stuck in traffic or drive no faster than what seemed to be 1st gear - to which I say DSGs hate rolling around in 1st. I would probably recommend recording by your headrest, as that would be where your ears are as the driver and effectively where the sound will travel - ie. why you might hear it, and not on the video.

Hopefully you'll reach a resolution with whomever if helping you.