Battery warranty claim denied

[DBO]

We bought an Allspace at the beginning of this year. Recently I noticed that the start/stop wasn't coming on anymore unless we drove the car for quite some time. I checked battery voltage over a few days and noticed the battery generally only sat around 12.1 - 12.3V when parked and it dropped quite often below the 12V (e.g. 11.5-11.9V) when start stop kicked in, or when the car only did short trips for a few days. My Blackvue dashcam is also regularly cutting out within minutes of the car being parked (and it's linked to a 12V cutoff)

Alternator charge is working fine (>14V) and the car does normal city/highway driving which should be sufficient to keep charge. It does charge but it's just not holding well. I've recharged several times overnight and even tried a recondition cycle using my CTEK charger, but I'm not seeing the battery hold much more than mid 12's before settling back down to the 12V median.

OK, so I booked the car into service to get it checked out for potential battery replacement under warranty. Stupidly I charged the battery before taking it in - but I told them that, plus gave them the full history of all the diagnostics I've tried. Car came back saying - no fault found, no cause for battery replacement. They tried to blame me for having a Wayco fridge in the back (which wasn't even plugged in). I work with DC electrics, so this kind of BS just drives me up the wall.

Does anyone have a link or reference to a Workshop manual for the Tiguan? As far as I can tell, the start/stop fails to work when voltage drops to around 11.8V but I know it's also temperature related so it would be good to have the factory figures. There's generally a voltage range the factory has in their books under various conditions (e.g. ignition on, lights, fan off - reading should be 12.6 V ± .xV)

[Guest001]

We bought an Allspace at the beginning of this year. Recently I noticed that the start/stop wasn't coming on anymore unless we drove the car for quite some time. I checked battery voltage over a few days and noticed the battery generally only sat around 12.1 - 12.3V when parked and it dropped quite often below the 12V (e.g. 11.5-11.9V) when start stop kicked in, or when the car only did short trips for a few days. My Blackvue dashcam is also regularly cutting out within minutes of the car being parked (and it's linked to a 12V cutoff)

Alternator charge is working fine (>14V) and the car does normal city/highway driving which should be sufficient to keep charge. It does charge but it's just not holding well. I've recharged several times overnight and even tried a recondition cycle using my CTEK charger, but I'm not seeing the battery hold much more than mid 12's before settling back down to the 12V median.

OK, so I booked the car into service to get it checked out for potential battery replacement under warranty. Stupidly I charged the battery before taking it in - but I told them that, plus gave them the full history of all the diagnostics I've tried. Car came back saying - no fault found, no cause for battery replacement. They tried to blame me for having a Wayco fridge in the back (which wasn't even plugged in). I work with DC electrics, so this kind of BS just drives me up the wall.

Does anyone have a link or reference to a Workshop manual for the Tiguan? As far as I can tell, the start/stop fails to work when voltage drops to around 11.8V but I know it's also temperature related so it would be good to have the factory figures. There's generally a voltage range factory has in their books under various conditions (e.g. ignition on, lights, fan off - reading should be 12.6 V ± .xV)

The Stop Start voltage is set at 7.8 . I know because I turned it off on Monday and thats what it was set at from the factory
To turn it off you up it to 12 v and now it doesnt turn off at all

[DBO]

The Stop Start voltage is set at 7.8 . I know because I turned it off on Monday and thats what it was set at from the factory
To turn it off you up it to 12 v and now it doesnt turn off at all

Thanks Hillbilly, but I was talking more resting voltage for the main battery (*measured at the terminals). Are you referring to settings in the control modules or where were you getting those figures from? BTW - noticed you have the Blackvue as well. Are you running via a PowerMagic or a battery pack?

[The_Hawk]

You can’t fault service for saying there isn’t a fault… when there isn’t [when they saw it]. As you said, you charged the battery so it presented as full functional making it impossible for them to support a replacement (these things are all logged by the computer). Next time don’t charge it up so they can log a fault and have justification for a warranty claim back to head office.

As for the fridge, again benefit of the doubt to the service team, they pointed at a thing that could be a potential cause of excess power drain, regardless of if it really is or not. Especially if there isn’t a fault they could see in general. (Is that socket even powered when the car is locked?) In any case, remove it next time round too, far better to not have to argue about things that can be easily avoided. Sadly the dashcam could very well end with the same accusations since it’s powered 24/7 (even if it has a cut off) and it does drain some power…

In any case, I’ve learnt over time that it’s usually easier to drive in, not explain *any* of the trouble shooting you have done and just point and say “thing no worky” and then let them come to their own conclusion. They usually come to the same conclusion and you don’t have to argue with them. Even in IT Tech Support this is often the easier path too… let them run through their script without trying to explain how you have already done that to the poor level 0 phone answering person who doesn’t know what to do with that information anyway. Sad but true.

[Guest001]

Thanks Hillbilly, but I was talking more resting voltage for the main battery (*measured at the terminals). Are you referring to settings in the control modules or where were you getting those figures from? BTW - noticed you have the Blackvue as well. Are you running via a PowerMagic or a battery pack?

Yes i was as you said this "As far as I can tell, the start/stop fails to work when voltage drops to around 11.8V"

I dont quite understand exactly how it works but thats what the module is set to and what you change it to to disable it.

No I dont use parking mode.

The proper way to test a battery is to take it to Battery World or heaven forbid VW and do a load test on it. What it says at rest often is vastly different to its real world ability to start the car. 2 services ago VW said wifes Polo needed a new battery Strangely its still starting it even when car is only used once a week.

[Guest001]

SNIP
In any case, I’ve learnt over time that it’s usually easier to drive in, not explain *any* of the trouble shooting you have done and just point and say “thing no worky” and then let them come to their own conclusion. e.

Found that out yesterday My drivers seat hasnt been retracting when I open the door and as I have been playing with an OBDII with ign on and not the motor I figured it was the same as the Passat Low battery it threw an error and stopped working.

Expounded these theories but they looked and no faults but took it away to check.

Turned out that if the seat is set back past a certain point in the memory it doesnt retract.

Kind Foreman suggested I either pull it forward a bit or cut a bit off my legs. I chose the former and now it works again.

Shows that things arent consistent across various models LOL

[DBO]

As for the fridge, again benefit of the doubt to the service team, they pointed at a thing that could be a potential cause of excess power drain, regardless of if it really is or not. Especially if there isn’t a fault they could see in general. (Is that socket even powered when the car is locked?)

Yea, you're right. My own silly fault - Next time I'll just hand it over with a run-down battery and stay silent. The fridge socket thing proves they don't even know the basics. That rear AUX socket is only powered when you have ignition on so that's why I said it's annoying when they treat you like an idiot. Strangely I had exactly the same issue on our last Merc - but there it was a one visit complaint. They just swapped out the battery. I guess it all boils down to who you get on the day.

[Transporter]

It doesn’t matter that your fridge use the power only with the ignition on, it’s another consumer on the battery and less charge goes/stay in the battery. I’m not saying though that your fridge is responsible for your flat battery, only commenting that the mechanics at the dealership have a point. Did you check the overnight battery drain?

Is your battery EFB? Most likely it is, the AGM are better, they recharge faster and tolerate deeper discharge better than std lead acid (EFB) batteries.


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[IsDon]

Battery warranty claim denied

Hi DBO,

I notice you work with DC electrics so please don’t take this as a suck eggs explanation.

I also notice you have a BlackVue dash cam and that you use parking mode.

The reason I’m replying is that I had the exact same problem, with the exact same camera and it killed the very expensive battery in my Audi A6 Allroad.

Given you are using the BlackVue in parking mode, I assume you’re using a PowerMagic Pro. If so, you will know that the PowerMagic Pro is designed to keep your camera functioning while the car is parked until a preset threshold voltage is reached. The power is then cutoff from the dash cam thereby quarantining power so you can start the car. I found that the longer I had this setup the longer it took for the battery to be replenished to the point that the start/stop functioned as it should.

Handy tip. For those with start/stop vehicles, one of the first signs of an ailing battery is the car not stopping when you think it probably should, especially after what should be enough time to replenish the battery after you first start it.

I then followed the voltage for a few weeks. I found that even though the PowerMagic Pro should have shutoff the dash cam at 11.8V it was actually draining the battery below that before shutting off the dash cam. Even with the PowerMagic set at the higher cutoff voltage (12V if memory serves) it was still leaving the battery powering the camera for way longer than it should. A couple of times it actually drained the battery completely which, given the battery wasn’t deep cycle, killed it completely.

New battery.

I then disconnected the PowerMagic completely and vowed to never use one again. Fitted instead a CellLink external battery to power the dash cam when parked and found this to be a far more reliable solution. The CellLink website actually mentions that it was developed mainly for European cars (BMW I think) that had issues with other solutions (PowerMagic) for powering the dash cam while the vehicle was parked. I’m sure VAG vehicles also suffer these issues. The PowerMagic is probably fine for simple vehicles without the level of sophistication of modern European cars but using them on ours is probably a mistake.

I’m sure you’re also aware that the cars battery module monitors the health of the battery. I’m not certain what parameters it uses to monitor that health but I’d say it can only work within what it knows is connected to the vehicle. Obviously it doesn’t know you’re powering a dash cam while you’re parked and it may view this reduction in voltage over time as a battery that’s not holding a charge and therefore failing. My understanding is that the car will then reduce alternator charge rate to attempt to nurse the battery in an attempt to extend its life. This will obviously compound your problem as it would take longer for the battery to reach full charge as you’re driving. I’m pretty confident is saying that the car is also smart enough to not use start/stop if it thinks the battery is failing, regardless of the voltage at that instant. If it’s nursing the battery then clearly it’s not going to load it up with start/stop if it doesn’t need to.

When you put a new battery in the car you actually have to tell the car you’ve put a new battery in with VCDS or the charge rate won’t recover. Battery World can also do this through the OBD port using a programming tool. Obviously the dealer does this with his own computer setup to link to the VW server.

My suggestion would be to throw the PowerMagic in the bin. Get a CellLink battery to power the dash cam and never have another issue. Hopefully your battery will recover it’s health and you can avoid replacing it for a while. They’re about $500 for a generic replacement through BatteryWorld, and probably double that through a dealer so if you can delay replacing your battery until it’s normal service life then it will save you money in the longer term. The CellLink battery’s aren’t cheap, but I reckon they pay for themselves if you get a few more years out of your car battery. There are also batteries available that are equivalent to the CellLink. Do your homework. Look at charge rates as well as overall capacity before you decide. I think BlackVue even make one that’s cloud compatible so you can monitor it via the app. I wouldn’t go with it though if it’s charge rate and capacity were less than the CellLink.

I’ve used these guys for a lot of my dash cams and accessories (including CellLink) over the years and they’ve been great to deal with.

Buy Dash Cam | Australia's Best Dash Cam Dealer | Linelink Online |

I don’t have any affiliation with them, just passing on word of mouth good experiences for the benefit of others.

As far as a warranty claim goes, I’m not sure how much warranty you would get on a battery, if anything at all as they are considered to be a consumable item, like brakes and tyres. That said, if you’ve only had the vehicle for a short time and the battery’s not performing as it should then you should rightly expect it to be replaced under warranty. If you think it may be dead, don’t take a stealers word for it, take it to an auto electrician and get a load test done. They’ll tell you definitively if it’s up to scratch. It’s amazing how often components are deemed ok by the dealer within a warranty period only to be deemed defective once the warranty expires and you’re paying the bills.

[DBO]

Thanks for your insights and experience. The first thing when i noticed issues was to baseline the car without any accessories, jut so I could take any other factors such as cam or other current drawing devices out of the equation. This issue is not related to any of that. I ran a voltage data logger over the various states of the vehicle to at least confirm that all systems perform as expected. I can also run load tests as well but without the factory specs that doesn't mean much, hence my inquiry on the post for a link to the workshop manual. With the age of the smart alternators, we lost a lot of the simplicity which would have otherwise led you to a logical conclusion in simpler cars. Anyway, I'm 95% sure this is just a tired battery. It's not dead yet, but it's not in great health either.

In terms of dashcam stuff, I've installed a few PowerMagic setups for people and so far only one has come up bad and that was only because it had been badly wired. What I've fixed more of is auxiliary battery devices like the CellLink and people putting in relays where they don't belong. Don't get me wrong - they're good when professionally installed, but hook them up to modern vehicles without the right approach and boy you can create some dramas. You want to see some of the melted wiring I've pulled out.

The problem with getting a dealer to fix anything under warranty is that you have to let them prove the issue exists. A battery that's perhaps 40% degraded will be borderline stuff and as I said - my own stupidity that I handed it over just after charging. They would have needed to log voltage drop over time and map that against specs, which obviously takes time and heck, I won't begrudge them for not doing it. Anyway - I'll let it go for a while longer and hand it back to them when its a bit more run down. They can keep the car overnight next time and see the issue first hand.

If anyone has a link to VW service info, please let me know. I've got reference for BMW and Mercedes, but not for VW.

[davman]

My brother in law has a V6 Amarok, and is a DC whizz as well. Had very similar issues that he first noticed with the Start/Stop feature not working correctly. Anyway he went down the same path as checking and isolating battery charge etc etc. He went to the dealer for a new battery, and they tried to fob him off saying that it was his DC additions that were draining the battery. Anyway, long story short, is that the factory had installed the wrong type of Alternator for his vehicle - they had installed one designed for a non stop/start vehicle. Problem disappeared and hasn't returned for nearly 2 years since.

[Dan_3MPS]

If anyone has a link to VW service info, please let me know. I've got reference for BMW and Mercedes, but not for VW.

There should be an electrical system document in amongst this lot I've had bookmarked for a while. Can't remember where I originally found it, credit to original poster if it belongs to someone on here.

Tiguan Owners manual - Google Drive

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[Ozsko]

There is an ongoing lengthy discussion on low voltage/dash cams on the UK Tiguan forum at the moment, it might be worth a read.

[cameleon72]

What is battery model ,brand and model number? Please upload picture here or link of uploaded pic if you can.

[Guest001]

There is an ongoing lengthy discussion on low voltage/dash cams on the UK Tiguan forum at the moment, it might be worth a read.

A link would be good if you have been reading it Ta