APR Tune - 162TSI - worth every $$

[FastMitch]

Personally if you're going to get a tune I would be getting one based on best performance, convenience, ease/cost of updates and support.

Which is the best place in VIC for the best performance tune but you get a handheld so you can flash back to stock for servicing ?

[tigger73]

Which is the best place in VIC for the best performance tune but you get a handheld so you can flash back to stock for servicing ?

A few tuners can do this. I know this is how Spectune (Tarmac) generally sells their tunes. Also you can do it with RD Technik but you have to pay for the handheld controller. Other tuners may also be able to supply their tunes on hand-held controllers but you'd have to talk to them directly.

Most people that get a tune don't take their cars back to the dealer for servicing and would only ever flash back to stock in the event of needing warranty work to be completed. If you go with a local tuner they will often be OK with flashing back to stock in these situations (though again no guarantees that this will mean the vehicle doesn't get flagged).

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Pay to Play really, if you want a tiny bit more kick without tuning? then you could improve items such as your intake, upgrade parts of the exhaust post the O2 sensor and factory cat and install a better FMIC to reduce IATs.

I'm going to go down this path, just waiting for a a 162 to pop up in a wrecking yard and grab the stock DP and stock exhaust system to hack up and do some back to back testing on a dyno.

[Boosted_GP]

I just had the stage one done on my 162. Drop in filter and grate removal only mods

Do you guys also get compressor surge (hear it but don’t feel it) on spool up (under 3000rpm)?

I’m impressed with the torque increase but the top end power doesn’t feel anything like the increase APR claim (78hp)




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[tigger73]

I just had the stage one done on my 162. Drop in filter and grate removal only mods

Do you guys also get compressor surge (hear it but don’t feel it) on spool up (under 3000rpm)?

I’m impressed with the torque increase but the top end power doesn’t feel anything like the increase APR claim (78hp)




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We’re still waiting for someone to do the before and after dynos to verify the APR (or any other tuner) claimed values.

APR tunes typically are aggressive at lower RPM and tend to fall off towards Redline. It’s just the way they approach tuning and you will likely feel that at’s running out of steam in the last 1,000rpm. If you look at their published dyno charts it shows this quite clearly what you’re feeling on your butt dyno:



Different tuners will do things differently and look to pull all the way to Redline but less aggressive early. Different schools of thought and approaches to tuning.

The APR claimed increases are based on the VW published figures (which are conservative numbers) and on a “calculated” engine power. It is my belief that the stock VW number is low as they publish a curve with the “nominal” engine power for the motor and not “actual”. The APR figure is not easily verifiable as their figures are flywheel numbers and are calculated using drivetrain losses which are estimated. Personally I don’t like this approach as I’d rather real world before/after dyno at wheel figures on a real car but it seems a lot of major tuners do this which makes verifying marketing claims almost impossible. Fuel quality will also come into it but that’s another topic completely.

My own personal experience running my 162TSI on the dyno is that stock it is putting out close to 180-185kw at the fly (140kwaw on the dyno). Therefore even if you get the 235kw flywheel figure APR claims, that’s around 67hp (not 7 increase from stock.

Plus the biggest difference between stock and stage 1 is at ~5,000rpm and after that the APR tune increase to stock drops off.

Only way to fix this is to install an IS38 turbo [emoji6][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]




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[Boosted_GP]

Thanks Tigger73.

I have the same school of thought. I do love a car with strong midrange but the surge is taking away from “Oem feel” and would of preferred 0.1-0.2 bar less boost and have a smooth “Oem feel” to the power delivery.

Forgot to mention we at 5500 ft ASL. (1500m) which makes it really tough for the turbo.

Can APR be customized by the dealer to tweak it to your liking?

IS38 is on the cards. Just need to find a second hand rev H or newer turbo.


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[Psych101]

We’re still waiting for someone to do the before and after dynos to verify the APR (or any other tuner) claimed values.

APR tunes typically are aggressive at lower RPM and tend to fall off towards Redline. It’s just the way they approach tuning and you will likely feel that at’s running out of steam in the last 1,000rpm. If you look at their published dyno charts it shows this quite clearly what you’re feeling on your butt dyno:



Different tuners will do things differently and look to pull all the way to Redline but less aggressive early. Different schools of thought and approaches to tuning.

The APR claimed increases are based on the VW published figures (which are conservative numbers) and on a “calculated” engine power. It is my belief that the stock VW number is low as they publish a curve with the “nominal” engine power for the motor and not “actual”. The APR figure is not easily verifiable as their figures are flywheel numbers and are calculated using drivetrain losses which are estimated. Personally I don’t like this approach as I’d rather real world before/after dyno at wheel figures on a real car but it seems a lot of major tuners do this which makes verifying marketing claims almost impossible. Fuel quality will also come into it but that’s another topic completely.

My own personal experience running my 162TSI on the dyno is that stock it is putting out close to 180-185kw at the fly (140kwaw on the dyno). Therefore even if you get the 235kw flywheel figure APR claims, that’s around 67hp (not 7 increase from stock.

Plus the biggest difference between stock and stage 1 is at ~5,000rpm and after that the APR tune increase to stock drops off.

Only way to fix this is to install an IS38 turbo [emoji6][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]




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The apr dyno graphs are showing a US spec 2014 GTI and figures are all measured at the wheels (even the crank figures are estimated based on power and torque at the wheels). Therefore the stage 1 gains atw (approx 60kw on a gti according to apr) won't be the same on a tig because of the awd.

The total power number they state is irrelevant. It is the before and after measurements and the difference that have any meaning.

[INASNT]

My Stock Vs Stage 1 Vs Stage 2 tunes.

Note stage 1 tune output was actually 165kw@wheels, but that graph had a funny dip at the end which was fixed but didnt get the graph for it.

I keep saying for a Melbourne APR tuned car to go on the same dyno as mine to see the power/torque curves to compare.

[Boosted_GP]

Thanks inasnt. Is this apr or Etuners flash?

What fuel you running?


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[tigger73]

Thanks Tigger73.

I have the same school of thought. I do love a car with strong midrange but the surge is taking away from “Oem feel” and would of preferred 0.1-0.2 bar less boost and have a smooth “Oem feel” to the power delivery.

Forgot to mention we at 5500 ft ASL. (1500m) which makes it really tough for the turbo.

Can APR be customized by the dealer to tweak it to your liking?

IS38 is on the cards. Just need to find a second hand rev H or newer turbo.

APR as a general rule don't do custom tune files. Everyone gets the same file which they have spent many hours developing and refining. This is how APR tunes are designed - to come on hard and tail off at high rpm. Revo tends to be smoother with more mid-range/top end. A good custom tuner should be able to write a file to how you specify/prefer.

From stage 1 the best performance upgrade path is IS38 rather than stage 2. You'll get a lot more gains from installing an IS38 than you will from a DP and cost is in the same ballpark - especially if you're sourcing a second-hand turbo.

[tigger73]

The apr dyno graphs are showing a US spec 2014 GTI and figures are all measured at the wheels (even the crank figures are estimated based on power and torque at the wheels). Therefore the stage 1 gains atw (approx 60kw on a gti according to apr) won't be the same on a tig because of the awd.

The total power number they state is irrelevant. It is the before and after measurements and the difference that have any meaning.

Yes correct. This is the dyno chart that APR put up for the Tiguan 162TSI and is for the Golf GTI (fundamentally same motor). If you compare the figures, you're looking at 175kw (stock) to 235kw(stage 1). Both of these are calculated figures at the flywheel.

Agree that the difference is more important than the absolute values. I really put this dyno chart up to show how the APR tune tails away towards redline, which is what Boosted_GP was mentioning and is a characteristic of APR tunes. The tend to go onto boost fairly aggressive so you get a kick but the side-effect of doing this is that they run out of puff at the top end. There's no right or wrong. Some people like this and others prefer a more linear file with strong mid-range pull to redline - like a stronger stock file.

[Psych101]

Yes correct. This is the dyno chart that APR put up for the Tiguan 162TSI and is for the Golf GTI (fundamentally same motor). If you compare the figures, you're looking at 175kw (stock) to 235kw(stage 1). Both of these are calculated figures at the flywheel.

Agree that the difference is more important than the absolute values. I really put this dyno chart up to show how the APR tune tails away towards redline, which is what Boosted_GP was mentioning and is a characteristic of APR tunes. The tend to go onto boost fairly aggressive so you get a kick but the side-effect of doing this is that they run out of puff at the top end. There's no right or wrong. Some people like this and others prefer a more linear file with strong mid-range pull to redline - like a stronger stock file.

The low end torque is a characteristic of the small turbo more so than the apr tune. This characteristic will be maintained more or less regardless of the tuner. Some cars produce so much torque down low that tuners specifically limit it at lower rpm but I don't think the tig torque levels warrant that.

The reason it tapers off at higher rpm is the turbo again. It just can't flow the air to hold boost and give what the engine is demanding at high rpm. It runs out of breath.

[tigger73]

The low end torque is a characteristic of the small turbo more so than the apr tune. This characteristic will be maintained more or less regardless of the tuner. Some cars produce so much torque down low that tuners specifically limit it at lower rpm but I don't think the tig torque levels warrant that.

The reason it tapers off at higher rpm is the turbo again. It just can't flow the air the engine is demanding at high rpm and runs out of breath.

Yes to a certain extent the power/torque curve is related to the turbo. However tuning philosophy will determine how hard it comes onto boost and how well it hangs on at higher rpm. You're obviously limited by the turbo/hardware as to how much boost you can make but from there the tuner can choose how/when to request how much boost/timing/etc to add in at what point. Each tuner will do this slightly differently and map the throttle response differently also. All of this can greatly change the drive-ability of the car.

If you get the opportunity jump in cars with different tunes to compare and see how each one behaves. They can be quite different. Even throttle mapping can make a big difference to how the car drives and how "touchy" it is.

[Psych101]

Yes to a certain extent the power/torque curve is related to the turbo. However tuning philosophy will determine how hard it comes onto boost and how well it hangs on at higher rpm. You're obviously limited by the turbo/hardware as to how much boost you can make but from there the tuner can choose how/when to request how much boost/timing/etc to add in at what point. Each tuner will do this slightly differently and map the throttle response differently also. All of this can greatly change the drive-ability of the car.

If you get the opportunity jump in cars with different tunes to compare and see how each one behaves. They can be quite different. Even throttle mapping can make a big difference to how the car drives and how "touchy" it is.

In my experience a tuner will find power and torque wherever it can be found throughout the rev range (particularly on a car that doesnt make much power to start with). How well they do this depends on their skills and experience which accounts for variation between tuners more so than their tuning philosophy on a tig. We are talking about an awd family suv making less than 200kw.

If you were tuning a rear wheel drive higher powered turbo charged car like a bmw m4 for example there may be more variation in the approach between tuners with decisions made about whether the tune needs to be moderated at lower rpm so you arent just smoking the rear wheels but this is not an issue on stock hardware on a tig.

[INASNT]

Thanks inasnt. Is this apr or Etuners flash?

What fuel you running?


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Etuners custom tune, 5-6 runs on dyno to check everything and tweek. 98 octane fuel.

Dont look at the final peak kw and torque numbers, look at the area below the graph from stock, its like driving a totally different car.